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Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!seismo!hao!hplabs!sdcrdcf!lmeck
From: lmeck@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Loren Meck)
Newsgroups: net.nlang
Subject: Foreign Words
Message-ID: <525@sdcrdcf.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 16-Sep-83 21:13:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: sdcrdcf.525
Posted: Fri Sep 16 21:13:07 1983
Date-Received: Sun, 18-Sep-83 22:32:39 EDT
Reply-To: lmeck@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Loren Meck)
Organization: System Development Corporation, Santa Monica
Lines: 43

Some comments on pronunciation and spelling of foreign words:

The surname "Jung" is not pronounced "young" in German; the "u" is
pronounced as in "put" or as "oo" in "foot" ("yoong" would be better).

The practice of incorporating foreign words using the most convenient
spelling (often the foreign one stripped of any marks not used in English,
if the foreign language uses the Roman alphabet), instead of a phonetic
spelling, is the reason for problems such as those with "San Jose", etc.
Not many people laugh at the usual pronunciation of Los Angeles (Lahs
Annjulus), but it's just as bad as the proverbial midwesterner's
pronunciation of San Jose.  If these words had been incorporated
phonetically, we would have something like Sahn Hosay and Lohs Ahnhelase
("Lohs" rhymes with "dose").  Would this be better?  I don't know.

In the discussion of "sake", it was mentioned that not only are the
pronunciations of the vowels impossible to determine from the spelling,
but the tones of the vowels are not conveyed either.  In oriental languages,
the tone used for a vowel conveys meaning; in western languages, tone is
used to convey auxilliary information (attitude, etc.).  Any representation
of an oriental word which ignores the tones of vowels is useless as a guide
to pronunciation.  I'm not familiar with Japanese, but I'll give some
examples from Thai.  The tone symbols I have used are ASCII approximations
of Thai tone symbols; the Thai characters for consonants and vowels cannot
even be appoximated in ASCII, so I have used phonetic Romanizations.

	 m
1a      kow     high tone                               he, she, him, her

	 +
1b      kow     rising tone (cow?)                      white

	 v
1c      kow     falling tone (cow!)                     rice


2a      glei    normal tone (rhymes with "pie")         near

	  v
2b      glei    falling tone (glei!)                    far (!!)

----
Loren Meck (lived all my life in and around "Lahs Annjulus")