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Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!floyd!clyde!akgua!sb1!ll1!otuxa!we13!ihnp4!ixn5c!inuxc!pur-ee!CSvax:Pucc-H:pur-phy!crl
From: crl@CSvax:Pucc-H:pur-phy.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.notes
Subject: Flames from an ex-notesfile site
Message-ID: <934@pur-phy.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 17-Sep-83 16:19:11 EDT
Article-I.D.: pur-phy.934
Posted: Sat Sep 17 16:19:11 1983
Date-Received: Sun, 18-Sep-83 13:20:04 EDT
Organization: Purdue Univ. Physics Dept., W. Lafayette, IN
Lines: 93

This is going to be a flame, I warn you now.

For the last year, we have run notesfiles in conjunction with news 2.9,
and from this summer, 2.10.1.  For the most part, we liked it because
we (i.e. system staff) really disliked the readnews interface.  Notesfiles
gave this to us, and, at the same time, seemed to reduce the amount of
time needed to peruse through the USENET news.  Just recently, a visual
news interface, vnews, came in.  We tried it, liked it in spite of its
deficiencies, and have thrown notesfiles out the window, with pleasure,
I might add.  This is where the flaming will come in later.

Let me start by listing vnews' deficiencies:
	1.  No index page.
	2.  No grouping of discussions.
However, both of these are slated to be added and distributed with
news version 2.11.

Ignition sequence start. . . .

Here are notesfiles deficiencies:
	1.  The index page gives no indication of what notes haven't been
	    read.  Thus, its advantage is limited.  Of course, I can see
	    the titles of new notes, but I can't tell if there is a reply
	    I want to see.  So I usually end up 'j'ing to them all anyway.
	2.  The grouping doesn't always work.  True, it makes a good
	    attempt, but not perfect.  It should really begin to generate 
	    a 2.10.1 compatible "References:" header and use it.  See below
	    for more about compatibility.
	3.  Incompatibility with USENET software.  With 2.10.1, the
	    information kept in the header is completely lost after
	    travelling through a notes-only site.  Soon, as news begins to
	    rely more on this info, a notes-only site can only be regarded
	    as being a detriment to the network.  The 'A' news interface
	    has GOT to go, and soon.  The headers MUST be kept.  Subject
	    lines MUST be make longer.  The size limitation MUST be
	    removed.
	4.  Reliability.  Administering it was a real pain in the A**!!
	    Rarely did a week or two go by that I didn't notice some
	    screw-up in the log like "some sort of failure resulted in a
	    jump to toobad".  This is an error message?!  Give me a break.
	    How am I supposed to find and fix bugs that aren't clearly
	    described?  Few, if any, messages even mentioned the notesfile
	    it referred to.  About once a week I had to manually remove
	    lock files (and not as the result of a crash).  A few times, I
	    even had to adb the text file to clear the NFINVALID bit.
	5.  Permission lists:  great idea, but never used for USENET news.
	    It would have been great if I could have by default set myself
	    up as the the director of every notesfile, but there was no
	    way to do this except by running as the notes user and doing
	    it manually.  And no, I don't believe the notes user should be
	    a real person, since real people often move, and I don't want
	    my uid "wired" into any system software.
	6.  Display driver: stupid.  When you use it at 300 baud, you see
	    how much it wastes time.  Also, since there is no way to tweak
	    the screen, often important blocks of text get split between
	    windows.  This is extremely frustrating.
	7.  Mailing replies: almost impossible.  The router supplied won't
	    build a real data base on an 11.  Furthermore, databases
	    change, and the table probably doesn't.  With 4.2's sendmail,
	    it won't be so bad, I guess.
	8.  The method of keeping the text of the notes saves space, but I
	    dislike it.  Why?  Because I like to be able to grep through
	    the news directory for some reference I seem to remember.  The
	    title is often deficient in helping me to find it, so 'grep'
	    is great for this.  Furthermore, due to some screwup, it's
	    easy to really trash a notesfile this way.  Our net.sources
	    notefiles was being clobbered every week by, it appears, a bad
	    free pointer.  I was forced to stop gating it in from news. Of
	    course, the problem is now moot, at least for us.
	9.  This last one concerns personal preference.  I dislike moded
	    command structure.  I would rather not have to swap command
	    sets every other minute.  Vnews has one set of commands that
	    work everywhere, none of this index page commands, reading
	    note commands, reading reply commands, etc.

Well, that about does it.  The news people have finally given us an
interface that I can enjoy.  Notesfiles came very close--it was well ahead
for about a year.  However, one thing I cannot personally stand is
software that "just about" works.  If features are missing, ok, they can
be added.  If features behave poorly, then I begin to fume.  I realize
that this software was probably written in spare time, i.e., not a funded
project.  I did not intend to insult any of its authors.  However, I
implore whoever is supporting it now to consider these remarks, especially
the ones relating to USENET compatibility.  Excuses like "notesfiles can't
do this or that" when talking about things like net.general/followup, etc.
just don't cut it.

I suppose I'll get flames about this back.  Oh well, if I can dish it 
out . . . .

Charles LaBrec
UUCP/BERKNET:	pur-ee!Physics:crl, purdue!Physics:crl
INTERNET:	crl @ pur-phy.UUCP