Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utcsrgv.UUCP Path: utzoo!utcsrgv!dave From: dave@utcsrgv.UUCP (Dave Sherman) Newsgroups: net.politics Subject: Israel & the PLO: replies to various people Message-ID: <2398@utcsrgv.UUCP> Date: Sun, 2-Oct-83 23:20:36 EDT Article-I.D.: utcsrgv.2398 Posted: Sun Oct 2 23:20:36 1983 Date-Received: Sun, 2-Oct-83 23:55:55 EDT Organization: The Law Society of Upper Canada, Toronto Lines: 111 =============================================================================== From: swatt@ittvax.UUCP (Alan S. Watt) >>>If you're going to quote from an Israeli publication, you ought to at >>>least indicate whether you have any independent substantiation of it. May I point out that the quotes I gave contained SPECIFIC REFERENCES and quoted SPECIFIC NAMES. A team of retired U.S. generals, including the former head of the Army Readiness Command. The police inspector of Tyre. The regional governor of Nabatiye. Dr. Dahar, who runs a medical centre in Sidon. Dr. Hamoud, owner-director of the largest of Sidon's hospitals. Sidon lawyer M.A. Jouazi. The Washington Post. The New York Times. The London Times. Named reporters. I CONSIDER THAT TO BE MUCH BETTER SUBSTANTIATED THAN MOST OF THE INFORMATION WHICH I HAVE SEEN ON THE NET ON THIS ISSUE. Yes, I am quoting from a book pubished in Israel. It is not an Israeli government publication, however, but a publication of the WZO, which I believe is the World Zionist Organization. If you still have doubts as to the conduct of the PLO in Lebanon, I will be happy to post some of the more revolting reports of torture and rape - again with NAMES, PLACES and DATES. A well-known and highly respected Toronto lawyer named Donald Carr made a trip to Israel and Lebanon last year, specifically to investigate allegations of Israeli mistreatment of prisoners and other actions in Lebanon. After interviewing dozens of witnesses, he produced a lengthy report on the situation which was published in the media. I will try to get a copy and put some excerpts on the net, if anyone is interested. Unfortunately, that is all the literature I have on the present war. For a good analysis and history of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war and the events leading up to it, I recommend "O Jerusalem", by Larry Collins and Domonique Lapierre, both non-Jewish journalists. =============================================================================== From: swatt@ittvax.UUCP (Alan S. Watt) >>>Early in the war, the Israelis were also putting about the story that >>>they had captured a PLO armory in Beruit with enough arms to "equip a >>>million men", which is pure moonshine. >>>...... >>>I suspect the Isreali military command started the story inside the >>>army units knowing that once it was repeated enough it would seem to >>>have the status of general knowledge. My Middle East geography is >>>rusty, but I believe a soldier stationed in the Bekaa Valley is in a >>>much better position to hear scuttlebut than to observe events >>>in Beruit directly. The information in "PLO: now the story can be told" states: "We found in South Lebanon 10 times as many arms as we had expected", Israel's Prime Minister Menachem Begin disclosed in June 1982 in Jerusalem. The PLO had enough weapons to equip and army of 100,000 or six times its estimated total strength. Some 150 heavy truckloads of this booty came each day for nearly two months to Israel and there was still more to come as new caches were uncovered. No further sources are given for this information. =============================================================================== From: morgan@uicsl.UUCP >>>I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this stuff, even if >>>it turns out to be true (it's certainly plausible). Are you >>>saying that it's ok to bomb hospitals, schools, etc. full of >>>innocent civilians if there's also a PLO soldier in there? >>>Or does it take two PLO? More? How many? I'm saying nothing of the sort. The situation is one in which the PLO soldier is shooting at you. Obviously, Israel does its utmost to avoid killing innocent civilians. But when the choice is between Israeli civilians being shelled by PLO, and Lebanese civilians behind whom the PLO are hiding, one must look out for one's own first. Following its tradition of hijacking planes and buses, the PLO in Lebanon hijacked entire cities, hiding behind the civilians when shooting, and holding entire cities hostage. I blame the PLO and its tactics for the deaths of Lebanese civilians. I deplore the fact that civilians have died. But put the thing into context, please. Approximately 100,000 Lebanese civilians have died in the civil war, at the hands of Syrians, PLO, Druze, Phalangists and others. The number killed by Israeli forces is relatively small. (Many of the initial figures as to civilian casualties of the Israeli invasion were supplied by the Palestinian Red Crescent, which just happens to be run by Dr. Fahti Arafat, brother of guess who. The figures were later found to have been grossly inflated.) =============================================================================== From: mjk@tty3b.UUCP >>>Since Israel is the third most powerful military nation in the world, >>>according to the Stockholm Peace Institute, I hope the PLO has a large >>>arms stockpile. They're going to need it. Why? So they can fulfill their clearly stated and often repeated objective of destroying Israel? Isn't that wonderful. Israel has no objective of killing Palestinians, or of anything like the PLO's designs for the Jews of Israel. The Camp David agreements propose Palestinian autonomy, within the context of security for Israel. The PLO have totally rejected this. Well, that's their problem. Israel just isn't going to go away. =============================================================================== Dave Sherman Toronto -- {cornell,decvax,ihnp4,linus,utzoo,uw-beaver}!utcsrgv!lsuc!dave