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From: emjej@uokvax.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: A Belated Reply to Paul Dubuc [from - (nf)
Message-ID: <3287@uiucdcs.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 30-Oct-83 00:15:43 EDT
Article-I.D.: uiucdcs.3287
Posted: Sun Oct 30 00:15:43 1983
Date-Received: Fri, 21-Oct-83 04:50:58 EDT
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#R:unc:-599000:uokvax:8300008:000:4035
uokvax!emjej    Oct 15 11:05:00 1983

Precisely. Non-Christian civilizations got "converted" (like Uncle Ben
does to rice, perhaps). This is an answer to Paul Dubuc's question

	You also seem to regard any higher standard to be the bane
	of the human race based on the fact that it is a "higher
	standard" not on the content of that standard. On what basis
	can you do this?

If you *truly* believe that you have absolute knowledge that accepting
your flavor of religion is the only way to save me from aleph-null
years of torment in the lake of fire, then by golly, you are doing me a
*favor* by kidnapping me and beating me to a bloody pulp (better finite
amounts of torment than infinite, right?) until I at least act like I'm
converted (like the Aztecs and Incas, among the civilizations that were
"converted;" come to think of it, Christians used even better methods
for them, like baptizing the infants and then bashing their skulls in
before they had a chance to grow up heathen), or maybe killing me ("We
had to destroy the village in order to save it" takes on a whole new
meaning, or does it?). So why don't I act grateful?

Not to pick on Christians; *every* group that has the power and the
dogma tends to do the same. (This is for your own good...) This leads
me up to what I really wanted to talk about--the notion of evolution as
it applies to societies and to ethics. I'd like to see discussion of
how one's individual choice (apologies for the "free will" vocabulary
here) of ethical system affects the survival of one's family/town/etc.,
and that common notions of ethics (come on, folks; the same way
solipsists still talk to what we call "other people" at the local bar,
for the most part we share a fair number of ideas about not killing
people, stealing, and the like) have arisen in this fashion--societies
in which murder is accepted as common practice would, one would think,
tend to croak off.  This is a simple question of cultural (not
individual) survival, something observable, and depends on no alleged
absolute standard of justice. (It can be interpreted by Christians who
wish to as God's suggestions, or the functioning of the universe as set
up by Newton's clock-winding God.)

For example, I would claim that tolerance has survival value (*vide*
the effects of suppressing Vavilov (please correct me on his name if
needed) in favor of Lysenko on the Soviet grain supply, or of rejecting
"Jewish science" on the Axis). The United States is a large bet that
I'm right (in a figurative sense, and among other things), and that's
one big reason I live here.

Not that I expect to convert anybody (belief in a god has infinite
(though trivial) explanatory value, but no predictive value), but I
hope some interesting notes will come of this...

					James Jones
					(...!uokvax!emjej)

P.S. As for how a god would better provide a revelation, I'd propose a
large hunk of something that looks like precious metal that appears at
eye level floating in front of anyone who thinks of wanting to consult
it, with the text appearing in whatever language the user speaks
best, using idioms and allusions appropriate to the intellect and
technology of the user, appearing as a voice, parchment, book, or
hypertext depending on the user's abilities, open to the portion most
directly applicable to the question at hand, and vanishing when the
user is finished with it, but people might think I'm joking.

P.P.S. Concerning why they don't put Christian books at the front of
book stores-- have you ever tried to even find a non-theistic book in a
book store? (You have too little faith in the book store owners' desire
for money, if you're right about Christian books being best-sellers.)
To the extent that prime-time TV mentions religion, it tends to be a
schmaltzy non-denominational Christianity, which I find at least as
offensive as you probably do. (And there I was, hoping that John-Boy
would follow through on facing the problem of evil in that *Waltons*
episode where Michael Learned's character got polio...just call me
"sucker," I guess.)