Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site utcsstat.UUCP Path: utzoo!utcsstat!laura From: laura@utcsstat.UUCP (Laura Creighton) Newsgroups: net.jokes.d Subject: Re: offensive jokes - (nf) Message-ID: <1421@utcsstat.UUCP> Date: Sat, 12-Nov-83 01:53:04 EST Article-I.D.: utcsstat.1421 Posted: Sat Nov 12 01:53:04 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 12-Nov-83 17:30:31 EST References: <3716@uiucdcs.UUCP> Organization: U. of Toronto, Canada Lines: 125 No, you missed the point. it is not that I think that leper jokes are awful, and anyone who likes them should have their head examined, but dead baby jokes are fine and anyone who dislikes them should have their head examined -- it is that I like dead baby jokes and i don't like leper jokes. This means that if we were doing this as a MAILING LIST, as they do it on the ARPA net, I would be getting DEADBABIES at Somewhere of other, but not LEPERS at Some other place. It does not mean that I would be trying to get Some other place to stop sending out LEPERS to the people who are interested. I hardly find that hypocritical. Now *pretending* to like leper jokes, that i would find hypocritical. But all this is by-the-by. If you interpreted that line as hypocrisy then you missed out on what I was trying to say the last time. I am sorry if I was not clear. I will try again. 1. We have a problem with net.jokes. People are getting upset. We may decide to do nothing about the problem, but ignoring that it exists is not productive. 2. The first solution was "USE YOUR N KEY". it has proven unsuccessful. Clearly, when or if we devise a solution we are going to have to devise one that takes into consideration that whatever factors caused people not to use their 'n' key before are probably with us now. 3. the next solution was "net.jokes.q". I think that this was a wonderful idea, but then I may be biased, because I proposed it. (Actually, it was invented several places simulataneously but I was one of those places. It didn't work, because of a bug in news which caused people to get net.jokes.q if they asked for net.jokes. NOW, although fixing the software is the best solution since lots of people were known to run old versions of news, this was deemed impractical. Now that everyone was forced to run 2.10+ to get net.announce, I think that news 2.11 could have the bug fixed and we can go back to net.jokes.q -- but this may never happen. 4. instead, we got ug.jokes. This did not work. Most sites did not distribute it. Some did not know that it existed, and others took a moral stand on the issue and decided that they would not forward it. 5. Now we have rotated jokes. There is still a problem. Some people do not know how to rotate jokes, and some are just lazy. People derotate jokes and then take offense. It does no good to say that they shouldn't have rotated them -- as I recall about 2 years ago we were saying that they shouldn't read net.jokes -- because when they are hot and bothered and cutting off all your newsgroups *now* you have a problem even if you think that it is their fault. I am not trying to blame ANYONE here, just see if we can come up with something that satisfies everyone, or most everyone, or as many as i can get... Okay? So we have the problem again, and all of this is background for those of you haven't been on the net for the past 3 years and didn't get to share in this experience. Now, some people think that why these attempts failed is that we adressed the wrong problem. According to them, the problem is that "such filth should not be on the net". last time they were saying things like this I was saying things like Frank Adrian is saying now. I don't know, maybe I have got wiser, maybe I have got tireder, and maybe I am just more cynical, but I don't think that this is enough. From my point of veiw, if everyone who saw the word X, where they thought that X was not likely to be funny, behaved the way I do when I see the word "leper" in the title and used the 'n' key there would be no trouble. Moreover, if everyone who accidentally got to see a joke that they did not find funny (as occasionally happens to me when I hit return after a leper joke out of habit) did what I do, and not laughed, and then read the title to the next joke, there would be no trouble. BUT THERE IS TROUBLE. So I am being unreasonable in expecting people to behave as I do. They aren't going to, no matter how hard I wish, so I am looking for a better solution. One proposal was "no filthy jokes". i don't like this proposal. I thought that I outlined why, but in case you missed it -- THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A FILTHY JOKE. THEY DO NOT EXIST. THERE MERELY ARE PEOPLE TO WHOM YOU SHOULD NOT TELL CERTAIN JOKES. People observe this rule all the time. For instance, nobody tells me any leper jokes. This is not because I foam at the mouth and tell them what slugs they are, but because I DON'T LAUGH. Now, I think that usenet is of such a size that there are people here who do not like any sort of joke out there. Humour is a funny thing. There is no way that i can force myself to like a joke that I find unfunny, or indeed to stop liking a joke that I do find funny. (I may decide that i no longer find such things funny, because their meaning has changed, but that is not the issue). So having dismissed (at least I have, though I am sure there are pleanty of you out there who will send me hate mail about this, and maybe one person who will disagree with me politely) this proposed solution, we need another one. And we have learned some things. 1. there are people out there who do not like certain jokes. 2. either they do not recongnise themselves ahead of time, or they are incapable of using their 'n' key. 3. when it comes to certain types of jokes, they 'cannot take a joke' and indeed become insensed about it. I think that the solution is to isolate these people from the rest. Since net.jokes.q did not work, how about "net.jokes.clean"? (I know, I know, I am back to my favourite solution again). That way, the people who want net.jokes will get net.jokes.clean by default, but that is hardly a problem. We can keep up rotating the jokes in net.jokes out of paranoia. We can post an article to net.jokes and have it expire in the year 3000 which says "here is how to rotate a joke and why we rotate jokes around here" and another "here is how to read rotated jokes". then we post an article to net.jokes.clean which also expires in the year 3000 which says "here is the history of net.jokes. look how we busted a gut trying to keep you people from getting upset. If by some disaster some poor ignorant soul posts an offensive joke to net.jokes.clean then you can send him lots and lots of hate mail ((send mail to utcsstat!laura or rabbit!jj for some really tasty examples if you have never done this before and want to know how to get started)) BUT DO NOT CANCEL ALL NETNEWS OR FIRE YOUR SYSTEM ADMINISTRATOR, OR REFUSE TO BUY ANY MORE PRODUCTS FROM THE COMPANY THAT THE POOR FELLOW IS ASSOCIATED WITH. so. was I any clearer this time? I sure was LONGER, at any rate. laura creighton utzoo!utcsstat!laura