Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site ulysses.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!harpo!eagle!mhuxl!houxm!ihnp4!ulysses!smb From: smb@ulysses.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: milk & meat - (nf) Message-ID: <727@ulysses.UUCP> Date: Mon, 5-Dec-83 15:06:47 EST Article-I.D.: ulysses.727 Posted: Mon Dec 5 15:06:47 1983 Date-Received: Wed, 7-Dec-83 00:14:33 EST References: <2884@utcsrgv.UUCP> Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill Lines: 70 From: dave@utcsrgv.UUCP Subject: Re: milk & meat - (nf) Message-ID: <2884@utcsrgv.UUCP> Date: Sun, 4-Dec-83 09:19:13 EST >> From: smb@ulysses.UUCP (Steve Bellovin) >> For example, most hard cheeses are cured with animal >> rennet, yet most Conservative Jewish authorities consider such cheeses >> kosher. Exactly where the line is drawn varies, of course, depending >> on your rabbi. Some Orthodox rabbis agree with this reasoning, but >> insist that the rennet must come from a kosher, ritually slaughtered >> animal. *** FLAME ON *** Sorry, Steve, you can't do that. You can *not* refer to Conservative rabbis (let alone rabbits :-) ) to determine whether something is kosher. Kashrut is determined by halachic considerations which are objective standards and have not changed in over a thousand years. The Conservative movement rejects much of halachah as not necessary and "not applying to today's times". You are quite welcome to say that Conservative rabbis will give you permission to eat X, Y or Z. They also give you permission to drive on the Sabbath. So what? That does not change the halachah, and it cannot make a treife item kosher. If someone wants to be less observant, that's their decision and I have no objection. But don't claim that the religion allows something when it doesn't. (flame off) The issue here is the validity of the Conservative rabbinate. The Orthodox position has always been that the Conservative rabbis are at best wrong, and at worst leading others into sin. The Conservative view is that they are continuing the process of interpretation of the Law in the tradition of the Talmudists of 2000 years ago. The Orthodox view is -- as you and I have both pointed out -- that the oral law was handed down on Mt. Sinai, and is of equal authority and inerrancy; consequently, any new contradictory interpretations are obviously wrong. I don't accept this, and I'm hardly alone in that. But this is a long and complex issue which I'm too tired to discuss at length at the moment. It's really the same issue as the "Biblical inerrancy" debate in several Christian denominations, in fact. In any event, your flame is somewhat misplaced; my note was intended to be educational and point out what *some* rabbis believe. As to the specific argument, yes, it is possible that ingredients which pass through an inedible state are not treife, as I mentioned in an earlier article. This does not apply to cheese, however: the only kosher hard cheeses are the ones specifically manufactured with kosher rennet (Migdal, Haolom, Liberty, Great Canadian, and a couple of others whose names escape me at the moment). I'm pretty sure of my facts here; I'm basing my statements on conversations I've had with Orthodox rabbis and on some material that quite coincidentally arrived this week from a local synagogue. Let me be more precise about the Conservative position on cheese: any cheese manufactured under the juris- diction of the U.S. Pure Food and Drug Act (i.e., any US-made cheese) is considered kosher, because (a) rennet is not considered a food, and (b) Federal supervision is sufficient to prevent adulteration with other treife sub- stances. The Orthodox do not accept this because (a) they insist that the rennet must come from a kosher animal; and (b) they insist on rabbinic super- vision. If you accept the validity of the Conservative rabbinate -- and many do -- then most cheeses are kosher. --Steve Bellovin P.S. I imagine that those of you who have consulted rabbits instead of rabbits have found that carrots are indeed kosher...