Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site fortune.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!security!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!ihnp4!fortune!crane From: crane@fortune.UUCP (John Crane) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Another "naive" reply to "Thou Art God" Message-ID: <1941@fortune.UUCP> Date: Fri, 9-Dec-83 20:13:56 EST Article-I.D.: fortune.1941 Posted: Fri Dec 9 20:13:56 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 10-Dec-83 22:42:00 EST Organization: Fortune Systems, Redwood City, CA Lines: 109 Dear Tim et al: Unlike you, I am going to start my reply on a positive note. You disagreed with nearly everything I said. However, I read what your reply and indeed found something I could agree with. Such nonsense only confirms the opinions of those who think that occultists desire nothing more than to become the last survivor of Krypton, when in fact the goal is a willed self-transformation into a being which is superior due not to its "powers", but because of its beauty -- BECAUSE OF WHAT IT IS, NOT WHAT IT CAN DO. (emphasis mine) You made a very good point. The main reason for increasing ability is not to do side show stunts or going around zapping people who don't agree, but it is to increase one's own awareness and enjoyment of life and to help oneself and others (IF THEY WANT TO BE HELPED, IF NOT BUTT OUT). Hopefully, groups of such beings could get together and find some common interests. Also, as you said, it is to create a thing of beauty. I would also add: "Because its there to be had". As longtime readers of the group know, I feel that humans have attained to the status of gods in this century. We can devastate cities in a microsecond, send our voices across millions of miles, reap vast and profitable harvests, fly, create new forms of matter, pry behind the scenes of the very nature of events, and so on. These developments propel us into the world of the gods whether we want it or not, and our morals must be worthy of gods or horror and chaos will surely result. If human history continues as it has, we will surely die before another century passes. We must change if we are to survive our forced technological apotheosis. Our morals do indeed need to catch up with our technology, but I the gods don't need technology to do what they do. I would have expected a rebuttal to my intuitive arguments to be couched in logic and reason instead of labels, name-camming, and emotional rhetoric, especially comming from an educated person. If I am wrong, SHOW WHERE and HOW I'M WRONG. How can you make your point when you don't use logical argument but instead lace your text with heavily emotion-laden references: " naive and vain feelings comic books you must be kidding mental poison nonsense pseudo-scientific gimp bosh grandiose daydream nature of your religion unashamed egotism and wish-fulfillment gag " If were are going to talk mysticism and intuitition, lets talk mysticism and intuition. If we're going to talk logic, lets talk logic. Or lets play the game I was playing called "I'll tell you what I believe and you tell me what you believe." Your emotional attacks are uncalled-for. I know now what you DON'T believe. So, what DO you believe? It is worth sharing with the rest of us? Do you believe in ANYTHING POSITIVE or is your religion to go around putting down other people's beliefs and/or philosophies and/or knowledge? By the way, I'm sorry if you got the impression that I was advocating any of the beliefs I cited. The original letter called from some discuccion on the subject "Thou art God". I merely thought it might be interesting to point out that not only do I think there is something to that philosophy, but that there are millions of other people out there who share the same views. I, however, do not use those views as my personal basis for belief. I don't have to. My religion is what I observe -- with the natural senses and with what so-called "phychic" (meaning spiritual) senses I have developed up to this point. I don't think a person can argue anybody into a belief. If so, somebody else can argue him out. What's true for a person is what that person actually believes is true and nothing else. The fun in the scenarios you have pictured is not in being omnipotent, but in being more powerful than most humans. Seen in this light, the grandiose daydream nature of your religion is embarassingly obvious. There is nothing wrong with grandiose daydreams -- like many people, I have them not infrequently -- but there is something wrong with elevating them to the status of religion and making them a large thing in your life. My suggestion that you take up fantasy role-playing games was serious -- it would provide you with an outlet for your fantasies, which are not bad in and of themselves, and keep them from poisoning your religious views. You have your fun and I'll have mine. But don't you define for me what I could possibly gain from any philosophy! I don't like being second-guessed. You set up a straw man and then procede to knock it down. Not the kind of logic you'd expect from an educated person. MAKE it a Good Day! John Crane Fortune Systems, Inc. Redwood City, CA