Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!security!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!floyd!harpo!seismo!hao!hplabs!hpda!fortune!amd70!decwrl!daemon From: daemon@decwrl.UUCP Newsgroups: net.singles Subject: trying too hard Message-ID: <4601@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Wed, 14-Dec-83 15:35:57 EST Article-I.D.: decwrl.4601 Posted: Wed Dec 14 15:35:57 1983 Date-Received: Sat, 17-Dec-83 01:27:18 EST Sender: daemon@decwrl.UUCP Organization: DEC Western Research Lab, Los Altos, CA Lines: 113 From: Lisa Chabot Sorry about that letter from ...mit-vax!lisa (somedays UNIX is such a pain) (weekends or evenings, anyway--weekdays VMS in a pain) About Bob Paveleck's "trying to hard": o some women like being treated like a dog. How do you know they like being treated like a dog, what they consider being treated like a dog to be, etc? I'm not being sarcastic or anything. But how do you know they prefer this treatment? - Have you been told "I'm sorry, but you're just too nice"? This may be a fumbling attempt to turn you down and make you feel not so bad, not an admission of looking for someone crummy. - Have you watched another couple dating and said to yourself "He's a real jerk" ? If you're not part of the relationship you may not be seeing all of the relationship -- maybe they tease each other in public and enjoy that. - Are you jealous? I've been in that situation. Sometimes I can't see why someone special could consider anyone else. - From which follows: maybe neither of us is such a great find as we think we are. (Isn't English wonderful! I can't figure if the subject is plural or singular either.) - Of course, if they were wearing leashes and were smiling, I guess that's proof. :-) o about fancy restaurants and such. Maybe some of us aren't comfortable puttin' on the ritz. Some of us don't have any ritz to put on. Sometimes I feel uncomfortable being taken somewhere I couldn't afford the price of a cup of coffee. You gotta be careful taking poah folk out -- sure, you want to show someone a good time, that's the point: you don't want to make her feel uncomfortable, not on the early dates. Don't razzle, dazzle -- make friends. You're not looking for golddiggers, right? Having recently recovered from a second and nearly fatal session of starving studenthood, well, I can remember a couple of uncomfortable dates, and the guilty thoughts afterwards: am I just going out to make sure I get enough protein this week? (and a little I mean make that a lot of : how much longer to I have to listen to this before I can get back to work on my thesis?). I never figured out how to get rid of the guilt, but just decided to stick it out with another starving student (we could understand each others' priorities). o letting her decide where to go. Maybe she hasn't been thinking for awhile about where she'd like to go with you, whereas you've probably been thinking about that sort of thing for awhile. At least if this is a first date. Maybe she figures if you ask out, then you have to come up with an idea; if she comes up with ideas, then she gets to ask you. I don't keep a pile of things to ask to do if I get asked out (I'd lose it), I go propose a thing to do as soon as I can. o buying flowers. I don't know. I usually give them, rarely get them. (my whine for this letter :-) ) Do you at least get told you made the person feel uncomfortable with your gift before she went spelunking? And maybe she wants to be going out with someone else. Maybe you being an interesting date has pointed out to her that she is in someway still obliged to some other person, and that she isn't willing to disengage from that relationship. However stormy, or temporarily terminated, or tenous that relationship currently is. You start up the heavy dates or bring flowers, and this looks to her that you're getting serious and she ought to watch out for your feelings. Just who're you callin' a lady? You used the word "lady" alot, Bob. You're not one of those :-) fascist :-) door :-) openers :-) , are you? Some women consider "lady" to mean "thing on a pedastal", "someone not having human status", "fragile", or "someone having to wear funny and constrictive clothing" :-) .[You folks are taking this paragraph with a dose of humor, right? I won't be getting my eyeballs singed by irate responses, right? Please?] I don't say this attitude is unquestionably bad and you will have to be retrained, it's just not for everyone. I can't give a good definition of "trying to hard". I hear it alot. Sometimes it refers to those who are overwhelming someone (calling too frequently--and that's hard to define). Sometimes it refers to someone who persists after someone who doesn't appear to want to settle down (and without even all the fancies of gifts or expensive dates). Sometimes it seems like a synonym for someone who can't have a worthwhile self-image unless it includes a steady. I look at the people I've seen accused of trying too hard, and all I see are persistent individuals who've failed for the time being -- the time being meaning the time at which they were so accused, because they may have succeeded using the same tactics (sounds like war) later on. Who can tell you that your "trying too hard" is counterproductive? But be careful. There aren't any hard and fast rules, because. Don't generalize, even if you seem to have overwhelming first-hand evidence. Make sure the other person is comfortable with your overtures. If they keep hiding in caves, well, have you tried going and hunting one down and trying again, or asking for advice? Probably, yeah, I know that was kind of mediocre. But you really ought to try maintaining a friendship with someone you tried dating. It won't work all of the time, or maybe even most of the time. But it might be the beginning of a relationship if things go well, and not the end. How do you tell if someone is comfortable? Well, if they've run off into a cave, they were clearly not comfortable. But I've mentioned somethings, like watch out on money issues, and make sure if you're dating a feminist you don't order her drink for her unasked. And maybe you've just been asking out women who aren't really your type? O+, Lisa Chabot by day a wild-mannered ...decvax!decwrl!rhea!amber!chabot at DEC, Marlboro, MA