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From: sdyer@bbncca.ARPA (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: net.motss
Subject: Re: SEPARATE SPACE
Message-ID: <479@bbncca.ARPA>
Date: Sun, 15-Jan-84 01:44:37 EST
Article-I.D.: bbncca.479
Posted: Sun Jan 15 01:44:37 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 15-Jan-84 06:13:29 EST
References: <413@ucbcad.UUCP> <445@bbncca.ARPA> <449@bbncca.ARPA> <475@bbncca.ARPA>
Organization: Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Cambridge, Ma.
Lines: 72

Regarding women's bars and harassment, Will says:

	I guess I feel that it is necessary to look at the societal context of
	the discriminatory situation.  Obviously, blacks and lesbians have both
	been victims of considerable harassment and discrimination.  If 
	Somewhere (a lesbian bar in downtown Boston) refuses to let you in
	because you are a white man, that strikes me as a very different sort
	of discrimination than the white gay men at the Union Club (a gay bar
	in NYC) who refuse admission to black gay men.

Harassment and discrimination should not beget further harassment and
discrimination, though with human nature, it usually does.  We do not
have to condone such behavior, though an individual might "understand" it.

	Somewhere, I have heard, has allowed some men to enter the bar in the 
	past who have taunted the women patrons there, and occasionally caused
	property damage as well as physical assaults against the patrons.

This does not explain the situation that a woman described in an earlier
news item, where in order to gain admission to the Marquee, a lesbian bar
in Cambridge, she had to convince the bouncer that she was indeed a
lesbian.  This woman is small and slight, and would be unlikely to damage
much property nor assault many patrons.  Also, most every bar, be it
straight or gay, can deny admission to people it deems potentially roudy or
troublesome.  This does not become discrimination until the criteria for
exclusion are categorically applied to a particular subgroup.  I propose
that we admit that any establishment which harasses people on the basis of
their sex or sexual preference is guilty of just that--discrimination.

	It hurts especially because you (and I) know that you (and I) are not
	going to harm these bars or anyone in them (at least intentionally).
	But this is not the point.  Oppressed groups should have the right
	to gather by themselves, even if they gather in what is technically
	a public place.

I suppose here we have to distinguish between legal "rights" and a kind of
new-age noblesse oblige.  That is, as enlightened men (and straight women)
who know how to take a hint, we might stay away from lesbian bars.  God
help us if a group of gay men and women together might want to sit down and
have a drink.  Luckily, straight or gay men's bars probably aren't quite as
picky--a group of mixed sex and sexual preference is less likely to meet
harassment there.  Ironically, if statutes regarding discrimination against
sexual preference are enacted with any teeth in them, a good case could be
made against such practices.  Even now, the bars are probably guilty of
sex discrimination.

As a public policy issue, "oppressed groups" (and all groups) have the
right to gather.  They do NOT have "the right to gather by themselves"
in a public place, to the exclusion of the rest of society.

	If they did not attempt to maintain some degree of segregation, it
	is likely that they would not be able to continue to exist.

I don't think this argument reflects reality.  People don't continue to go
to places which don't support the kind of environment they desire.  An
establishment forms the initial "concept"--the clientele carries it out.
Thus, gay men's bars stay pretty, um, homogeneous.  Clubs which cater to
the Black community usually stay predominantly black.  Lesbian and Gay
Engineers and Scientists meetings don't ordinarily attract lawyers.
Lesbian bars aren't exempt from this.  Is lesbian culture so fragile that
an occasional gay man or straight person will ultimately obliterate it?  Is
discrimination necessary as a matter of course?  I think not.  It IS
appropriate for a bar which identifies itself as a lesbian bar to ensure
that everyone know that by some informal exchange with the doorperson at
the entrance.  It is also appropriate for the doorperson to use her
judgement in denying entrance to potential troublemakers.  But this
judgement should not be based solely on sex or sexual preference.

-- 
/Steve Dyer
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