Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
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Path: utzoo!linus!bbncca!wdoherty
From: wdoherty@bbncca.ARPA (Will Doherty)
Newsgroups: net.motss
Subject: MISCELLANEOUS
Message-ID: <499@bbncca.ARPA>
Date: Sat, 21-Jan-84 21:05:12 EST
Article-I.D.: bbncca.499
Posted: Sat Jan 21 21:05:12 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 21-Jan-84 23:36:45 EST
Organization: Bolt, Beranek and Newman, Cambridge, Ma.
Lines: 75

This is an attempt to respond to a variety of messages which have
appeared on motss in the pasat week or two.  I will attempt to be
brief.

To Charles B. Francois (decvax!aalegra!cbf):
NAMBLA stands for North American Man/Boy Love Association, not
National Man/Boy Lovers Association, mostly because some Canadians
are members of the organization.

To "Marty":
Responses come in two forms--reasoned and unreasoned.  Yours was one of
the latter.  I only hope that you consider that perhaps people who have
"goy" names may have roots of which you cannot surmise.  In fact, I
have my share of relatives who died in Hitler's camps.  Your insensitivity
in equating consensual cross-generational relationships with mass
genocide should be apparent.  If it isn't, there isn't anything else
I can say.

Ruth (decvax!decwrl!rhea!swshub!obelix!ruthr) correctly points out that
power imbalances exist in a variety of relationships that occur in our
society, but that the only such relationships against which there is
legislation is the cross-generational relationship.  She also points
out correctly that children are not pure, sexless creatures, but indeed
typically have sexual urges before they reach kindergarten (age ~ 5) which
continue typically for 5 or 6 decades.

She feels that the penetration of any young child is criminal assault.
Astonishingly, most pedophiles would agree.  (Note, in current terminology
pedophile refers to someone who likes prepubertal children, whereas
pederast or ephebophile refers to someone who likes postpubertal youth.)
Most pedophile sexuality consists of stroking, kissing, cuddling, and
oral sexuality.

Punishment for such "offenses" (i.e. crossgenerational sex involving
someone younger than 16 years old, or 18 in some cases) may result in
long-term imprisonment of "sexually dangerous offenders" in institutions
where they may be held long beyond the term of their sentence until
they are no longer designated "sexually dangerous."  I visited one man
who has spent 40+ years in Bridgewater State Prison for one consensual
sex act with a 14-year-old boy who didn't want him to go to jail.


Steve Dyer (decvax!bbncca!wdoherty) asks me to discuss this issue
"seriously."  I have from the beginning.  You wonder if I mean that
"we are discussing food co-ops run by 4 year olds."  Well, if a 4-
year-old wants to run a food coop, I see no reason why not.  I do
not believe that "children are simply smaller adults," but that 
adults and children are people, and people have certain rights.
I believe the rights enumerated in the NAMBLA resolution are inalienable
for all people.

I do agree that children are, in general, physically "weaker" than
adults.  I do agree that children learn more about the world that
surrounds them as they grow older.  I do not see these two characteristics
as crippling disadvantages which require that we treat children as
incompetent, merely that we treat children with an awareness of their
limitations.  We should gauge those limitations not on the basis of
age, but on the basis of ability and maturity.

As far as NAMBLA "get"ing "off" about "Children re self-determining
beings,"  I agree with the view you impute to NAMBLA.  Children are
self-determining beings.  And as far as the motives you impute to
NAMBLA for *unanimously* approving the resolution, I have no doubt
that most of the people who approved that resolution believe sincerely
in the tenets of that resolution.  I only hope that some of the child
abusers of the world, those who perform *nonconsensual* acts on children,
both sexual and non-sexual, will realize that their actions cannot be
permitted in a society which provides certain rights for all people.
No doubt, part of the reasoning which allows such nonconsensual
"molestors" to rationalize their actions is this inflexible and
hypocritical ethic, promulgated by the societal majority, of complete
powerlessness, frigid asexuality, and dearth of basic human rights in
childhood.

Wow, have to stop for a break... more later.