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From: tmh@ihldt.UUCP (Tom Harris)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: re: Herodotus and the Jews
Message-ID: <2174@ihldt.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 5-Jan-84 10:47:58 EST
Article-I.D.: ihldt.2174
Posted: Thu Jan  5 10:47:58 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 6-Jan-84 02:42:55 EST
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    Herodotus makes no mention of the Hebrews, because I seriously
doubt that the events of Exodus took place.  My guess is that the
Isrealites, if they did indeed reside in Egypt, were not slaves.
Egypt was traditionally a pretty slaveless society.  Almost all
the monuments were built by conscripted labor (i.e. peasants
tapped for the job).  No whole people would have been made slaves
(especially if they had come to Egypt freely, if they were
overworked it probably meant that the Egyptians considered them
as locals).  The Hebrews may not have been allowed to leave
freely, but I doubt that force would have been used to stop them
(land is scarce in Egypt and nobody would protest foreigners
getting off it).  If the administration changed for the worse,
they would have fled to the desert then, rather than wait around to
be made slaves.  We have fairly good records from Egypt during the
period that Exodus must have occurred (it has to be a century or so
on either side of Ramnes I).  I have read a theory that the Pharaoh
of Exodus was Ramnes II son of Ramnes I (who was Joseph's pharaoh).
Ramnes II was a prolific builder and to the inhabitants of Egypt
it may indeed have seemed that they were worked like slaves.  If
we assume Exodus to be somewhat accurate, my guess is that Moses
asks permission to leave is denied, decides to make a run for it
(plagues, Passover and parting of the Red Sea are added later for
dramatic effect) and they become desert tribesmen.  I doubt that
Exodus is any more accurate than Herodotus.  Certainly the loss of
an Egyptian army and a pharaoh (not to mention the parting of the
Red Sea) would have left visible traces in Egypt (if nothing else
Egyptian priests would have gone out to the Red Sea every few
years trying to do a repeat).  At any rate Ramnes II lives to be a
old man ruling for over 40 years.
    By 450 B.C. the Jews were one of a hundred or so two bit tribes
overrun by the Persian Empire.  They had, at that point, no impact
on Greece and so Herodotus had probably never heard of them.  If
he had run into one on his travels we may well have had the Exodus
story included in his Histories (probably tempered by whatever the
Egyptians would have told him about their side).  There are no
traces of the Hebrews in Egypt either.  If we assume that they did
indeed sneak off into the desert one night I doubt that the
Egyptians would even have remembered them 20 years later (much
less several centuries).  Oral history has a tendency to exaggerate
the deeds of the forefathers (vis the Illiad and the Odyssey) and
much of the exaggeration comes early on.  So if you assume even 
a generation or two passes before somebody gets around to writting
Exodus down I sure you would get plenty of exaggerations.  Also
written history as we know it (nonfiction) doesn't exist until
Herodotus (Herodotus does try, but of course since his is the first
it leaves a lot to be desired by modern standards).  Almost all
writting before that time has either religious (doesn't attempt to
be nonfiction) or government (generally accounting) significance.
To sum up had the Egyptians indeed lost an army and a pharaoh when
the Red Sea closed, or even if the first son of the pharaoh (not to
mention every other Egyptian family) had died in Passover
Egyptologists would probably have found evidence of it. 
Therefore, we have to take the more dramatic parts of Exodus as
being 'Deus ex machina' for the benefit of those who read it
later (much as Herodutus' giant ants, or the Cyclops from the
Odyssey).

					There is no God but Allah
					and John Calvin is his prophet,

						or

					Hoot Man Swazei,
						Tom Harris