Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site rochester.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!seismo!rochester!ciaraldi From: ciaraldi@rochester.UUCP (Mike Ciaraldi) Newsgroups: net.comics,net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Marvel Comics, Jews and Other Ethnic Groups Message-ID: <6119@rochester.UUCP> Date: Sun, 8-Apr-84 20:02:12 EST Article-I.D.: rocheste.6119 Posted: Sun Apr 8 20:02:12 1984 Date-Received: Tue, 10-Apr-84 19:09:22 EST References: <393@ihuxt.UUCP> Organization: U. of Rochester, CS Dept. Lines: 141 Since the author of the original article asked for responses, here are some from someone who has read a lot of Marvel and other comics over the years. I have never noticed a SYSTEMATIC bad treatment of Jews in Marvel Comics, but I would certainly admit that an author's personal beliefs can color his writings. This can be blatant or subtle, and is probably unavoidable to some extent (since, almiost by definition, someone's "world view" colors his perceptions of the world and how he or she describes it.) A few general points to start off; Because of the sheer volume of mail Marvel receives, the author will not, most likely, receive a personal reply to his letter. In additon, by not addressing it to a particular b magazine, it may have wound up at the bottom of the mail pile instead of going right to the editors involved . Marvel does have a policy that EVERYONE reads all the mail that is addressed to him. The only exception is Editor-in-Chief Jim Shooter, (who made the rule). His volume got to the point where he had to hire somebody to read the mail so he would have time to do the rest of his job. He does get reports on the letters, and interesting or important ones get sent on to him. Most Marvel characters are deliberatley non-ethnic, WASP types, I suppose mostly so they would have broader appeal (rather than SEMING to be targeted at a specific group). Some people who are conspicuously Jewish have appeared. Besides Bernie Rosenthal and Kitty Pryde, there a lot of bit players. I specifically remember one of Nova's high school buddies as someone who was delibieratley very Jewish (Star of David, yarmulkah (sp?), etc.) Sorry I can't remember his name, but the comics was cancelled 6 years ago. Moon Knight (Mark Spector) is Jewish, and his father is a rabbi, as revealed in the last few issues. Many people on the Marvel staff are themselves Jewish, although I would gues that most are "assimilated". The founders of modern Marvel, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, and Jews, as were the Goodman family who owned the company for many years (before selling out to a conglomerate). Len Wein and Marv Wolfman (both at DC now, but shapers of Marvel in the Seventies) are Jewish. And, I seem to recall that Mark Gruenwald is, too (oddly, the person the letter was sent to). Some more specific stuff: I don't think you can condemn all of Marvel based on a few issues picked either at random or deliberatley. The general tone of Marvel seems to be that tolerance is desirable, and prejudice is undesirable. In addition, although superheroes operate to a large extent outside the law, they have (perhaps paradoxically) a pretty strict code of actions. Thus, Spider-Man would not go killing Russian diplomats for the crimes of the soviet state. He wouldn't even kill some supervillain who was trying to kill him, when that would certainly be termed self-defense. Rather, he would try to capture the villain and turn him over to the criminal justice system. Why? As said many times by many, many heroes, if they go around killing people they would not really be any better than the "villains" they oppose. I don't know if I buy this totally, but that is the stanadard marvel hero. So, when Captain America is confronted with a neo-Nazi group and a JDL-type (perhaps exaggerated for the story) group that advocate violence as a general rule, he opposes the TACTICS of both groups. He appeared, to me at least, to be more sympathetic to the JDL-type person, at least willing to admit that he had a grievance. One of Steve Rogers' (Cap's secret identity) neightbors is a Nazi concentration-camp survivor, and about 2 years ago had a long flashback about how Cap broke into the camp and tried to help the prisoners escape. Why didn't Cap try to get the death camps bombed? I don't know, but I suppose that, since they were not bombed in real life, there was no reason why they should have been bombed in Marvel history. It might have been better for the characters, but what would be the rationale with respect to the existence of superheroes (the primary change of history compared to our real world). Why did Kitty and Peter fall in love? Why did an Israeli and an Egyptian superhero team up? Could it maybe be for the same reason that you seem to see an Israeli Miss Universe contestant or Olympic athlete willing to talk with his or her Arab counterpart? Namely, that these people recognize that people are individuals, that they do not necessarily believe or support what their government says or does, (and might not have the power to change it anyway), that they may not necessarily believe what others of the same ethnic group beileive (or are said to believe). There is a word for the practice of assuming that anyone you meet of a particualr group will be like your pre-conceived notion of that group. It's called "prejudice." Now for the personal stuff: I think the author of the article to which this is a reply reveals his own pre-conceptions, and that these particular ones are such that almost ANY treatment of Jews in comics would be unacceptable. He maitains catagorically that assimilation into a non-Jewish culture is bad. He says people who do this a somehow "not as Jewish" because of it (my choice of phrasing). He says that, since 1945, no Jew should even consider marrying a Gentile, because of what happened in Germany. And so on. The point is, he has opinions, to which he is certainly entitled. I happen not to share those opinions. I have a somewhat brighter view of the human race, one which says that people all over are pretty much the same, with similar fears and goals, and not at all easily pushed into pigeonholes because of their racial, religous, or ethnic backgrounds. This is based on my own experiences. For the record, my own background is Italian Catholic, third generation American. I have traveled in the USA and Europe, met people from around the world while at Cornell and the University of Rochester, and found many of my own prejudices demolished over the years by facts. I hope this will stimulate discussion. I also hope the discussion will be of the form "I agree with so-and-so (or disagree with so-and-so) for the following reasons.", and "I think so-and-so misinterpreted what so-and-so saids", and "So-and-so's arguments don't hold water, because..." and so on, and not "He's wrong, I7m right, that's it." Address further commnets to the net or directly to me, Mike Ciaraldi via ARPA: ciaraldi@rochester via Usenet: seismo!rochester!ciaraldi