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From: holt@convex.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Re: Reagan FLAME - (nf)
Message-ID: <34900021@convex.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 10-Apr-84 15:51:00 EST
Article-I.D.: convex.34900021
Posted: Tue Apr 10 15:51:00 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 12-Apr-84 04:39:06 EST
References: <101@eneevax.UUCP>
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Nf-ID: #R:eneevax:-10100:convex:34900021:000:3679
Nf-From: convex!holt    Apr 10 14:51:00 1984

#R:eneevax:-10100:convex:34900021:000:3679
convex!holt    Apr 10 14:51:00 1984

Larry Kolodney, (The Devil's Advocate), states:
"IF SOCIAL PROGRAMS HAD LITTLE EXPECTED RETURN THEN CONGRESS, WHICH IS
STILL COMPRISED MOSTLY OF BUSINESSMEN AND THEIR ALLIES THE LAWYERS WOULD
NEVER HAVE PASSED THEM."

Sorry Larry, Congress is composed primarily of POLITICIANS.
A politician's primary goal is to get re-elected, not to do what makes the
most "business sense".  Come down to earth man.  What in the world do
you think a federal budget deficit of >200 billion is, "business sense"?

Larry states further that:
"Social programs certainly do have an expected return.  We live in a society
in which, like it or not, the economic sucess of any one of us depends
in the success of all of us.  A healthy economy require a strong
consumer demand.  The purpose of welfare programs is to maintain that
demand in times of recession so as to blunt the deliterious effects of
the business cycle."

This premise has been dealt with by other submitters to this net topic.
However, consider the ever increasing burden that welfare and social
programs have placed on the federal budget since the early/mid sixties.
During much of this time, the economy was extremely healthy, and yet the
welfare programs continued.  It should be obvious that welfare is not
intended to "maintain [consumer] demand in times of recession".

Larry continues:
	"Student loans serve the purpose of promoting the creation of an
educated workforce so that we maintain technological and intellectual
growth in the competitive world market.  The original educational
assistance act wasn;'t called the "Defense Education Act" for nothing."

From a previous note I submitted on this very topic (in response to a
note from Mark Terrible):
	"I agree with you that it is important for our citizens to be
well educated.  I just don't believe that the federal government should 
subsidize education on the collegiate level."
In other words, I SUPPORT a well educated American populace.  How else
can we expect a democracy to work?

Larry's last words:
"Look buddy, if you really think that you got where you are today SOLEY
through your own efforts then you are really quite naive.  You were born
into a society that made your education possible as well as the
existence of your job and this network.  If you lived in Chad and
worked just as hard you'd be a starving peasant.  What's the difference?
SOCEITY.  Think about that the next time you think that you owe nothing
to society."

Look Larry, I have never said that I got where I am without the existance
of society.  I fully understand that my education throughout primary and
secondary schools was paid for by taxes, and that my college education,
which was at a state university, was subsidized by the state.  I simply
said that I think that state government support of INSTITUTIONS rather
than federal government support of selected INDIVIDUAL's educational 
expenses is the most efficient, and fair approach to subsidizing collegiate
level education.  Thus, I do owe a lot to society, specifically to those
taxpayers who helped pay for my education.  How should I pay back those 
people for their support?  I pay real estate taxes and vote for bond
issues to increase the educational level of primary and secondary
schools, and I support state subsidized educational institutions.  

I do not support federal welfare programs.  What do I owe to people on 
welfare?  They didn't help pay for my education.  And they certainly aren't
helping pay for yours now.  No, Larry, I don't think that welfare is a
good investment.  It's a humanitarian act.  Not an investment.

				Dave Holt
				Convex Computer Corp.
				{allegra,ihnp4,uiucdcs,ctvax}!convex!holt