Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site teldata.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!vax135!cornell!uw-beaver!teltone!teldata!tac From: tac@teldata.UUCP (Tom Condon) Newsgroups: net.flame,net.politics Subject: Re: (long) The Great Educational Debate Message-ID: <304@teldata.UUCP> Date: Thu, 12-Apr-84 15:31:46 EST Article-I.D.: teldata.304 Posted: Thu Apr 12 15:31:46 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 13-Apr-84 20:59:29 EST References: <381@hogpc.UUCP>, <251@unisoft.UUCP> Organization: Teltone Corp., Kirkland, WA Lines: 100 , (sop to the blank line eaters--consider it a religious sacrifice) >> Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site unisoft.UUCP >> From: phil@unisoft.UUCP (Phil Ronzone) >> Newsgroups: net.flame,net.politics >> Subject: Re: (long) The Great Educational Debate >> Message-ID: <251@unisoft.UUCP> >> References: <381@hogpc.UUCP> >> >> The responses to flaming on student loans/education show that I >> was not clear enough -- the disagreements to some points in my flame >> are ones that I mostly agree with -- hence I was not clear. >> >> To re-flame (more explicitly): >> >> 1). I am against Federal/State/local funding, >> direct or indirect, of students or schools. >> All schools, kindergarten through college. Phil, I couldn't agree with you more! The problems with public funded education are too often overlooked. To remain accredited a school system must choose it's text books from the "approved" list which the government (pronounce that: big brother) provides. Now what you say is so bad about that? Imagine the reading list which an Idi Amin would be glad to provide you with a choice from. Any authority like this can be abused, and we get no votes on the bureaucrats (hey, some of you might do well to learn how to spell that word) who make that list. Another problem that can arise in funding of educations is in where you can go. Currently you can not apply *ANY* federal educational moneys towards an education at Hillsdale College (including GI bill money). The reason is that Hillsdale refused to submit to the minorities hiring practices that the Federal government subscribes to. In actual fact, if they did they would have to *REDUCE* the number of minorities and women on the staff! THAT IS RIGHT, REDUCE!!!! Aren't government regulations nice? >> >> >> 3). My statement: >> ``I personally gave up all remaining vestiges of faith >> in our "higher" educational system when I saw a UCLA >> history course use as the course book one that compared >> Angela Davis to Thomas Paine.'' >> Elicited the response: >> ``Not all history books or (insert your favorite course) texts can be >> masterpieces of educational literature. Most all, I hope, are >> written by very human authors who have their own opinions, some >> of which may differ from the collective mass opinion......'' >> from Rick Paul. >> True -- but (in my value and belief systems) equating Angela Davis >> with Thomas Paine is akin to seeing an ungraduate geology book >> used by a college that asserts that the world is flat. First I >> think it's a joke, then when I realize they are serious, it's >> disgust and horror time. And remember, that book was on the acceptable list! >> >> >> 4). Most schools/teachers don't teach. I find they don't even >> get the facts straight. My statement: >> I really tired (what am I, Marvin??) of "rounded" college >> grads that don't know why the Japanese attacked us at Pearl >> Harbor, when the Great Depression was, what the Bay of Pigs >> means, when the transistor was invented, who the current >> leader of the Soviet Union/the UK/West Germany/France, or >> even who our own VP is -- oh shit or ANYTHING! >> was intended to state that not only do the students not >> know why (thinking), but don't even know what/when (facts). The emergence of unions and government feelings that they "know better" who is a good teacher have deteriorated the level of education to a shocking degree. There are far too many people graduating from COLLEGE without a proper command of the English language (I don't mean foreign students either). The reading level of the students has soared to an average of 7th grade for those who graduate high school. I a student is good at sports they can get a major college education without learning anything except how to dodge the rules. All of this has come about under a public education system. I do not recall any of these problems from private education, but I am willing to be enlightened. >> >> >> And last, I think that the Federal funding of schools >> is like the Federal funding of letter delivery -- both >> cause ricing prices for declining products. >> >> Have fun, Phil Ronzone. >> Again I agree, Phil. They are both as efficient and useful. The major push for public funding is to "insure" that the underprivleged have an equal opportunity. Why is it then that the "Graduates" from the central area schools always rate lowest on the scholastic abilities tests in our area? (I can't speak for the rest of the nation, but anyone out there want to gamble?) Could it be that they have not had the "equal" opportunity? Surely you will not tell me that they were inherently inferior! From the Soapbox of Tom Condon {...!uw-beaver!teltone!teldata!tac} A Radical A Day Keeps The Government At Bay.