Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site decwrl.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!security!genrad!decvax!decwrl!rhea!kryptn!ts1!burrows From: burrows@ts1.DEC (Jim Burrows) Newsgroups: net.games.frp Subject: Fighting Florentine Message-ID: <6990@decwrl.UUCP> Date: Mon, 9-Apr-84 23:51:43 EST Article-I.D.: decwrl.6990 Posted: Mon Apr 9 23:51:43 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 11-Apr-84 01:38:24 EST Organization: DEC Engineering Network Lines: 69 I'm bothered by some of the recent messages concerning two-weapon fighting. They seem to represent some missunderstandings of combat as practiced in the real world. > It is far easier to wield two weapons whose method of attack is > far different, than it is to wield weapons that are the same. This > is why using two lances, is patently rediculous, but using Rapier and > Main Gauche (left-handed dagger), is well known. Actually, the fact that lances are designed to be used braced from the back of a charging horse has a lot more to do with it. If you meant spear, you might care to observe that fighting with two spears is an actual African and Asian style. Also, the method of attack with rapier and dagger is as similar as is possible given the difference in length. Actually, come to think of it, I realise now that it is simply > stabbing weapons, that cannot be used well in florintine mode. However, > florintine style is not as effective as most game systems (most notably > Rune Quest) makes it out to be. (Two florintine attacks are not as good > as single attacks, with two individuals). Huh? Florentine in common usage refers to the simultaneous use of the rapier, a predominantly (in later years completely) thrusting or stabbing weapon and the poiniard or dagger, a stabbing weapon. As to the effectiveness of two florentine attacks, while it is true that one can not easily do two successive full extension lunges, the maximum damage attack for a thrusting weapon, the close-in upward dagger thrust can be quite devistating in effect as it can allow one to bypass the opponents ribs, an otherwise moderately effective natural aromor. In addition the effectiveness of a florentine facing a single-weapon opponent can be signifigantly enhanced by the difficulty of parrying two attacks with a single weapon. This should probably be reflected by a diminished parry-chance or an increased to-hit, rather than in increased damage, but what the heck, it more-or-less balances out in the end. > The reasons for fighting florentine and for fighting with rapier and > dagger are rather different. Attacks made while fighting florentine are > made primarily with the edge of the weapon, perhaps trying to cut through > armour of some sort. The style of rapier and dagger came with the demise > of plate due to the long-bow, the cross-bow, gunpowder or the pike, > depending upon which author you read. When fighting with rapier and dagger, > while the point is faster than the edge, you cannot hope to penetrate much > in the way of armour. Furthermore, to use the dagger, you must face your > opponent, and present a larger target area! Ah, gee fellows, the florentine mode IS rapier and dagger, and thus quite similar to itself. In that style one primarily attacks with the point rather than the edge. Beyond that, the point of a dagger or a stiff sword straight sword such as the small sword and most rapiers is one of the most effective attacks against armor, inferior only to modern fire-arms, the long bow, heavy crossbow and pole-arms of the class of the Lucerne hammer, all of which represent high energy thrusts with the point of a very narrow weapon. The invention of the lunge and the use of the triangular cross-section small sword rank along with the causes of the demise of armor you listed. Beyond which, armor wasn't used by people on foot nearly as much as by those who had mounts to carry the weight. Fencing in it is a horrible idea. The use of a dagger does not preclude use of side-on stances. I've seen both a left-sided and right-sided form used. In the one the dagger is held in a position similar to regular single weapon fencing, and the sword over the head point down at an angle, in the other the sword is held as usual with the dagger close in by the body. In this case the dagger is reserved for times when the opponent is well within ones gaurd. Lest one get too caught up in the notion that two weapon fighting is predomanently done withthrusting weapons, the Japanese had both two sword and sword+dagger styles based on slashing/cutting weapons. Not using the tip, they did wear a moderate amount of armor even when unmounted.