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From: tomj@dartvax.UUCP (Thomas Johnston)
Newsgroups: net.games.frp
Subject: Re: Back-Stabbing
Message-ID: <1256@dartvax.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 15-Apr-84 14:03:30 EST
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1256
Posted: Sun Apr 15 14:03:30 1984
Date-Received: Mon, 16-Apr-84 07:30:16 EST
References: <1286@pur-phy.UUCP>, <28500009@orstcs.UUCP>
Organization: Dartmouth College
Lines: 51


  As I have stated more than once, we apply thief multipliers only on 
the die roll for damage.  I have indicated what can happen when one
starts to multiply strength and weapon bonuses as well.  Marion Hakanson
believes that it is reasonable to expect a stronger thief [or one with
a better weapon] to do more damage than a weaker one when back-stabbing.
I agree.  I do not believe that strength and weapon damages should be 
multiplied.
  One reason why these bonuses should not be included in the multiplication
is that, as Marion Hakanson says, the increased damage results from finesse
and skill, not sheer force.  Another reason can be found in the mathematics
of the game.  A fifth level thief wielding a long sword, with a strength
bonus of three, and a weapon damage of three, would expect to do
 
     E[X] = ( E[d8] + 3 + 3 ) * 3 = 10.5 * 3 = 31.5
 
points of damage, if both the strength and weapon damage bonuses were
included.  Using Marion Hakanson's approach, in which only the weapon
bonus is included in the multiplier, the same thief would expect to do
 
     E[X'] = ( E[d8] + 3 ) * 3 + 3 = 7.5 * 3 + 3 = 25.5
 
points of damage.  In D&D (d8's for fighters), 31.5 points of damage would
kill the average seventh (7th) level fighter.  In AD&D, 31.5 points of
damage would almost kill the average sixth (6th) level fighter (d10's for
fighters in AD&D).  Twenty-five and one-half points of damage is more 
than possessed by the average fifth level fighter in D&D, or the average
fourth level fighter in AD&D.  While these numbers may not seem extreme to
you at the first glance, try them against magic users!
  A fifteenth (yes 15th) level mage averages 31.5 hit points.  A tenth
level mage averages 25 hit points.  While you all who play thieves may
disagree (I play one myself, and I dislike the rule myself), these
numbers are extreme.  If the strength and weapon damages are not included,
the average damage works out to
 
     E[Y] = (E[d8]*3)+3+3 = 4.5*3 + 6 = 19.5 
 
points of damage.  This comes out to just above the average hit points of
a fourth level fighter in D&D, just below a fourth level fighter in AD&D,
and just below those of an eighth level magic-user.  I've said enough.
In the long run it comes down to the dm's decision.  I'm all for doing
lots and lots of damage against random monsters and nasties, but when it
comes to pc - wars (Player characters fighting player characters), and
pc - npc wars, thieves don't need any more advantage than they have.
  A final comment on the system that generated this problem.  D&D is very
good for generating offensive minded mages, thieves, assassins and monks.
There is very little in the way of defense available, except to the monk,
or to the deryni if you use that race as we do (shields provide magical
protection).  Even clerics have little in the way of defense, except after-
the-fact healing.
                           Tom Johnston
                           {cornell,linus,decvax}!dartvax!tomj