Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-h Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:aeq From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: The (non-)existence of God Message-ID: <619@pucc-h> Date: Tue, 27-Mar-84 04:31:20 EST Article-I.D.: pucc-h.619 Posted: Tue Mar 27 04:31:20 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 28-Mar-84 01:34:23 EST References: <896@ssc-vax.UUCP>, <30@mako.UUCP> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 85 > = Stoehr > Mr. Norris is incorrect to say that I provided no evidence for the > non-existence of God. Lack of evidence of existence plus the > classification of the belief in God into the class of simplistic > explanations of the unknown is indeed evidence, but is, by no > means, proof. Aren't you, in a way, assuming what you're wanting to prove? You have provided no hard evidence that belief in God is a "simplistic explanation of the unknown." > If you want absolute proof that God doesn't exist, well, of course, > there is none. If you want absolute, in the sense of mathematical or physical-science, proof that God does exist, I know of none. Anyway, let me give you some Bible verses to think about, whose truth is being admirably proved: .... For Christ did not send me [the apostle Paul] to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles [non-Jews, in this context], but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [Here comes the kicker:] For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. [I Corinthians 1:17-25] One can distill from this the same thing I said in my response to Rich Rosen's "leap of faith" article (which I encourage you to read, if you haven't already): You can't really prove God or understand Him without actually trying Him out. > The universe is full of mysteries, but to just up and say that > God created it defies all logic. Oh? Consider how much logic would have been required to set up the universe. Remember that if nothing existed, God would have had to make up, out of His head, all the natural laws that we take for granted. If you were a spirit entity, would you be able to think up, say, the inverse square law, if you had never seen it in operation? > Anyway, if you assume that God created the universe and life, then > you are assuming the existence of an entity far more complex than > anything within the universe which that entity had the understanding > and the ability to create. The question I then pose to Mr. Norris > is, who/what created God? You admit that God as we conceive Him is much more complex than his creation, yet you ask for something even greater and more complex than that? You really are finding every possible excuse to resist God, aren't you? Not only do you refuse to even try believing in God based on all the evidence in favor of His existence (cited in other articles), but you ask us to produce a super-God. Why not simply relax, rest, quit fighting? "Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." [Jesus's words, as recorded in Matthew 11:28-30] Anyway, asking for a level of indirection in Godhood is really just philosophical/theological speculation, which if followed to its logical conclusion wouldn't have a logical conclusion; you would keep asking "who created this nth-level Creator?", for n=1 to infinity, and you would never get any closer to the One than Whom there is no greater--which would suit Satan fine. Which do you prefer to follow--God or Satan? It all comes down to that choice in the end. -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq Have you hugged your junk mail today?