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From: jonw@azure.UUCP (Jonathan White)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Replies to Bickford/Sargent on Christian mythology
Message-ID: <2665@azure.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 28-Mar-84 16:40:52 EST
Article-I.D.: azure.2665
Posted: Wed Mar 28 16:40:52 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 30-Mar-84 02:52:40 EST
Organization: Tektronix, Beaverton OR
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More comments from Larry Bickford:

   Jon White points out the many things that have been done in the name of
   Christianity over the last 2000 years. You may thank Constantine and his
   perversion of the faith. You should also note that anything which either
   is popular or has power will be used adversely by more than a few - the
   name of Christ is not unique in this case.

As I have pointed out before, I don't think that modern Christians can so
easily divorce themselves from the actions of their predecessors.  It can
certainly be claimed that some of those actions were immoral, but it is not so
easy to prove that they were not acting out of a sincere Christian conviction.

   I would also like to have some *facts* to back up Jon's claim that
   Christianity is based on "a bunch of Hebrew myths." 

Well, this is a big subject that I'm not yet ready to unleash on the net, but I
will mention a few things.  First of all, it is probably not completely
accurate to say that Christianity is based only on Hebrew myths; there are many
creation and flood myths that are strikingly similar to those found in the
Bible that come from cultures predating the Hebrews.  A good deal of the
Hebrew mythology is second hand.  Also, the myth that is most important to
Christians, the myth of Jesus, doesn't have an exclusive Hebrew source, as
mentioned in the following passage:

 "Those who read only Hebrew mythology believe there was only one Christ, and
 Savior; they do not know that there were at least sixteen...One has only to
 read in full the story of Hercules to realize the pagan and mythic nature of
 the whole Christ story.  He too was born of a virgin, Alcmene; he too had a 
 god for a father, Zeus; he too was the `only begotten' of the father; he too 
 was called `Saviour,' the Greek Soter, and `the good shepherd,' Neulos Emelos.
 And just as with Christ, he died, went to the lower world and then ascended to
 heaven from Mount Orca.  He was also called the Prince of Peace...(Deceptions
 and Myths of the Bible, pp. 286-7)"

The author, Lloyd M. Graham, goes on to cite other avatar myths that are
suspiciously similar to (and predate) the Jesus myth.  Here are the names of
the avatars and their origins:

Jesus--Nazareth		Krishna--India		Sakia--India
Iva--Nepal		Indra--Tibet		Mithra--Persia
Tammuz--Babylonia	Criti--Chaldea		Attis--Phrygia
Baili--Orrissa		Thules--Egypt		Orontes--Egypt
Odin--Scandinavia	Hesus--the Druids	Quetzalcoatl--Mexico
Witoba of the--Telingonese

Note that almost without exception, these mythological characters were born
of a virgin (human) mother and fathered by a god.  Each was considered to be a
savior and was crucified on a cross.  After dying, each joined their father
in heaven.

Jeff Sargent disputed my statement that there was no historical basis for Jesus
by claiming that the Jewish historian, Josephus, mentioned Jesus.  Graham has
this to say about that:

 "The only direct reference to Jesus in Jewish history of the time is found in
 Josephus, born in Jerusalem, 37 A.D., but no serious student today, not even
 the theologian, believes that Josephus wrote it. (Ibid, p. 293)"

(Note that Josephus wasn't born until after Jesus allegedly died.)

Graham also comments on the lack of historical information on Jesus:

 "Had there actually lived a man who could raise the dead, heal the sick, and
 walk on water, history would have recorded it.  Why then did it not?  For lack
 of historians?  Had this been the case, the believers would have at least a
 negative proof, but oddly enough the period was peculiarly distinguished in
 this respect.  There were many historians just then and some of them the most
 illustrious of all time... (Ibid p. 290)"

I plan to write more on this in the future, but in the meantime, can anyone
give me any valid evidence that Jesus ever existed, such as an historical 
reference from a contemporary historian?

			Jon White
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