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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!seismo!ut-sally!ut-ngp!judy
From: judy@ut-ngp.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: who's attacking whom?
Message-ID: <466@ut-ngp.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 4-Apr-84 11:11:02 EST
Article-I.D.: ut-ngp.466
Posted: Wed Apr  4 11:11:02 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 5-Apr-84 00:56:27 EST
Organization: Comp. Center, Univ. of Texas at Austin
Lines: 66

(hi Vince!)
>I must say that it is quite interesting to see the scriptures used as
>arguments against the Catholic Church.  To my eyes, such attacks come from
>selective and biased readings of the Bible, focusing first on Catholic
>practices, and then searching for ways to "fit" verses as arguments against
>them.  I sense a definite undercurrent of anti-Catholic bias in Judy's
>comments, and not merely a dispassionate enumeration of the differences
>between the Catholic Church and her fundamentalist sect.  What's more, her
>attacks do not address any substantive issues of faith and belief at all,
>preferring instead to chip away at the unimportant ornaments that any
>organized religion picks up over the course of 2000 years.

 My, my some people are SO touchy! I NEVER SAID THAT CATHOLICS ARE NOT 
CHRISTIANS !!!!! I simply said that the two are not equivalent, that there are 
some PRACTICES that are not consistant with Christ's teachings. Some one asked 
me to back it up - so I did. For your information, I do not even consider myself
a Christian, and do NOT belong to a "fundamentalist sect".
 I will admit to some bias against the Church as it existed when I was a child.
As I have mentioned before, I was raised Catholic - but all I was taught by 
them was don't do this and don't do that, but if you don't do this it's a sin,
plus all the rituals that are the trappings of the Catholic Church.
NEVER was I shown the love, understanding, patience and acceptance that is 
SUPPOSED to be inherent in Christianity. So I turned away. But in High School 
a friend asked me if I ever actually READ what was in the Bible. Well, I hadn't.But I soon did. The passages I quoted I remembered from that reading. I 
realized then that much of what I had been taught by the Church wasn't in there. Mr. Dyer made no effort to refute MATTHEW 15.9 about teaching the commandments 
of men as scriputure. But when the Church is THE authority it makes its   
commandments equal to scripture.
  
>No one would argue that the Catholic Church relies solely on Scripture.

 I would. Tell me the scriptual basis for confession. 
The practice of confession must have changed in the last 20 years - I am not 
familiar with the "new rite of Penance", so perhaps the "vain repetitions" part 
is no longer relevant. But I still believe that one's sins and the  
forgiveness of such are strictly between the sinner and God.

 Mr. Dyer did not like my interpretation of MATTHEW 23.9 (call no man on 
earth Father). I would agree that this does not refer to one's male parent.
(Actually, I call my dad - Dad) However he does NOT offer an alternative 
interpretation and I don't know what else is left! He says that it's just an 
"honorific". I believe that is EXACTLY what Christ was telling us NOT to do.
Since other passages also say don't call anyone Master, or Teacher either, I 
can only conclude that he wants us to look only to God for spiritual guidance 
and not to ANY man. 

>Am I the only one who takes offense at the transparency of such
>allegations?  Is 'net.religion' a forum to knock selected organized
>religions?  One can discuss doctrinal differences clearly and calmly,
>perhaps ending with an agreement to disagree.  This is not what I see
>in ut-ngp!judy's most recent postings.

 Perhaps Mr. Dyer takes offence when none is intented and sees only what he 
wants to see. I rely on truth, not on blind obedience. Those passages are 
there, I did not make them up. I know that the Catholic Church is  
undergoing many changes and I am glad that the leaders of these changes 
did not abandon the Church. I still feel, however that the ultimate 
authority that the Church gives itself is responsible for many of the 
terrible things that were done in its name. Remember that absolute power 
corrupts.
 Read my article a little closer and you will notice that I feel the same 
way about other organized churches.

Judy