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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: non-evidence for the non-existence of non-god
Message-ID: <639@pucc-h>
Date: Thu, 5-Apr-84 13:41:29 EST
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.639
Posted: Thu Apr  5 13:41:29 1984
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Resuming my reply to Rich Rosen:

> A complete psychotherapy using this method [prayer] (yes, apparently this
> form of belief is very therapeutic and beneficial for some) would eventually
> wean you from that need to believe that there is an external watching
> over you, placing you back in reality mode where you realize "Hey, *I* did
> this!!  I helped myself straighten out, and it wasn't because of help from
> a deity but because of what I was able to do for myself!  Rationally, now,
> I don't have to believe that there is a god holding me up.  A god *may*
> exist, but if I choose to thank it now, I'll thank it for creating a
> universe that enabled me to be born, to exist, and to survive because of
> my own talents.  Then again, there's no proof that there's a god at all!
> Until I see some, why believe it..."  Persistent insistence that it's all
> the work of god because you feel it to be true would be laughed at by
> serious rational people.  [WHY WOULD SERIOUS RATIONAL PEOPLE LAUGH??? -ED.]

The assertion that psychotherapy via communication with God (prayer) would
eventually wean me from belief in God is unproven, unprovable, and unlikely;
not to mention that it would be the height of pride and ingratitude.  Yet, it
is true that I have had to do something.  As God has shown me that I have been
hanging onto various false beliefs because they gave me an illusory security,
or hanging onto pockets of strong negative emotion to use as a weapon, I have
had to make the choice whether or not to give them up and let God change me
into His image.  I did help myself straighten out, in a sense; but I did by
far the smaller part; if it were not for my knowledge that my Therapist loves
me, loved me enough to die for me, this wouldn't work.

I don't "have" to believe there's a God.  I just know Him.  And He did enable
me to survive by my own talents.  I continue to maintain that my personal
growth is due largely to the work of God because, as indicated in a previous
submission, there is a deeper kind of knowledge than the rational.  And
considering how seriously and angrily you take this topic, why would you
laugh, indeed?

Ah yes...anger.  The only reason I commented on (not "harped" on; please don't
accuse me unjustly) your "hurt" was that in my own experience, one is angry
because one feels hurt or threatened.  I used to be an exceedingly angry
person, angry with the world, with myself, and often with God, so I know
what I'm talking about.  I'm still angry with all of those at times, just
less frequently and (usually) less virulently (but don't listen to me if I'm
driving in messy city traffic!).
 
> But another element you seem to have a problem with is the way I "attack so
> vehemently".  Yes, I am vehement.  I believe that belief systems such as
> yours (as opposed to value systems--we probably share a number of *basic*
> values) are harmful and detrimental to humankind, and I will work hard
> (vehemently) to see them eradicated. [READ THE NEXT SENTENCE BEFORE QUOTING
> THE LAST ONE OUT OF CONTEXT!!! -ED.]  Eradicated not through imposition,
> but as a natural outgrowth of engendering logical thought in more and more
> people.  The problem that many so-called Christians see with "humanism" is
> that they fear that the humanist "doctrine" (whatever that is) will be
> "imposed" on people. At least that's what they say publicly. What they may
> really fear is that if logical thought becomes a natural part of the
> mindset of every individual, archaic religious beliefs will disappear as a
> matter of course.

I thank Yosi Hoshen for pointing out (though not in these words) that if
believing in Christ has made me a better person, why do you consider it
harmful?  As I have come to know God more closely, my thinking (about
myself, my relationships, etc.) has become MORE logical/rational, not less.

Perhaps some quasi-Christians are in fact afraid that as people (including
Christians) become more honest, critical, rational, a lot of what is now
promoted as Christianity (and the promoters thereof) will be exposed as false
and unreliable, as well as archaic (legalistic fundamentalism was, in some
way, around long before Jesus appeared; and the Apostle Paul wrote to the
church in Galatia to combat legalism).  But one cannot expose Christ as false
and unreliable, if one looks at His actions over the long term.  (There have
been times where, in the short term, I felt He was really shafting me, being
the Cosmic Sadist; but I see from a distance of time that He was in fact
helping free me of some very strong negative feelings.)

> ....as a result of such a change as I've described, values would evolve to
> serve the needs of all individuals in a society, rather than individuals
> learning to serve previously held societal values--codified in an ancient
> book--that do not best serve each individual's needs within a society.

The values that that book most strongly encourages serve the needs of both
the individual and society.  Note that "needs" is the word.  A world of
people who truly followed the teachings of Jesus--because they wanted to,
not because they were coerced to--would be a much happier, more relaxed,
better fed world than we see now.

One particular thing I might point out:  Though much of the Bible seems to
place women in an inferior position, and Paul's epistles place women in a
subservient role in the church, yet even Paul let God's cat out of the bag
when he wrote, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR
FEMALE [emphasis mine], for you are all one in Christ Jesus." [Galatians 3:28]
God grants all equal status before Him; that verse suggests that maybe the old
habit of subjugating women isn't right.

> Your belief system seems to hold that all
> that one could ever need to know about life is held within a book, and that,
> directly or indirectly, *everything* we need to know is found there....
> but to choose *any* such book as a basis for values for all of society
> without taking into account the needs of each individual in society in
> terms of global values would be a heinous crime.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting, and training in righteousness."  (2 Timothy 3:16)  The Bible is a
good basic guidebook; but I could argue that it doesn't contain everything
that every person needs; Jesus said, "When he, the Spirit of truth, comes,
he will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13); so God's teaching about life
continues on an individual basis.  And again:  the teachings of Jesus would
meet the needs of individual and society, whether in the U.S. or in the
Third World.  (If Jesus's teachings were truly followed, there probably
wouldn't be a Third World as we know it now--i.e. mired in poverty.)

> I've come to realize (I think) that Jeff and David (Sargent & Norris) may
> not be your classic fundamentalist Christians as we think of them.  They
> simply believe in certain tenets, and are not among those who would impose
> those tenets on others....  But I think they fail to see the danger of
> those who would impose, or of those who would propose to impose, suggesting
> to their followers that imposing such tenets is the way to "restore values
> to society", which really means to restore things to a time when life was
> predictable, orderly, and benefitting those in power (those who propose to
> impose).

I'm certainly not your typical fundamentalist Christian.  But again, the
tenets in which I believe are not the center of my belief (though they are
important); my belief is in Christ, not in any writings.  I, for one, do not
favor the imposition of Christian tenets upon anyone, since that often will
not result in people actually coming to know God (pity Reagan, Falwell, and
Helms don't realize this).  I have actually found that my life with Christ
is actually a bit unpredictable; I never know where I'll be called to grow
next.  It's interesting; it's exciting!  It's living, not just existing.
It has benefited me a lot; and it has begun to enable me to benefit others,
without imposing anything on anyone.  I LIKE Christ as well as loving Him;
He's the best friend I could have, the most interesting, and the most loving.

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
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