Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-h Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!floyd!harpo!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:aeq From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Belief Message-ID: <646@pucc-h> Date: Tue, 10-Apr-84 09:37:30 EST Article-I.D.: pucc-h.646 Posted: Tue Apr 10 09:37:30 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 12-Apr-84 04:36:50 EST References: <278@iuvax.UUCP> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 103 I will attempt to reply to at least some of the points made by Daryel Akerlind. (BTW, dumb question: I've never seen the name "Daryel" before; are you male or female?) > Every case of conversion of which I know has rested on a profound > "spiritual experience", a revelation of God's existence. Alas, I cannot personally provide a counterexample. While I admit that my initial experience of God included a sense of the logic of the whole setup, that the sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled the O.T. sacrifices (Romans 8:3 was the key verse), there was a real sense of illumination more than would come from just logic. However, I have one friend who (if I remember her account of her experience correctly) was a practicing Christian for some years before she had any revelation of God. > Now, I have never had a revelation of God's existence. So, given that I > start from a position of disbelief in God, on what grounds am I supposed to > believe? Surely I can't be expected (by God or anyone) to believe on the > basis of the objective evidence. Furthermore, I can't just will myself to > believe. In any case, what would be the virtue in willing > oneself to believe? The substance of my belief would be an arbitrary > concoction. As mentioned before, the objective evidence is not 100% conclusive proof, so I understand your reluctance. And you're right; one cannot will oneself to BELIEVE. However, there is a choice that one can make: One can choose either to commit oneself to follow Christ (you might add: if He's really there) and try to live like Him and be as self-sacrificing as He, or to continue to live entirely for oneself. It's a question of commitment more than belief. > This brings us back to a revelation of God's existence. Now, I have, at > various times in my life, done as Christians urged, and prayed for help > in this matter. I have been in such distress that I have literally > wept on my knees for some reassurance, some glimmer of illumination. > But no awareness of God has ever visited me. I truly admire your honesty in admitting that you even wept about this. Not all people would weep; and not all would admit it. I really wish I had a good answer for you; I don't want you to be unhappy. I could come out with the pat answer, "You went to God to try to get your own pain healed rather than to commit yourself to His will"; but that's too critical; Jesus Himself met and healed people where they were, and when what they plainly wanted was healing; I've heard it said "No one comes to God for the right reasons"; so God should be willing to take you where you are. I don't know what God has in mind for you, so I don't know why He hasn't made Himself plain to you. I can pray for you (alas, I am still such a selfish hound that it is difficult for me to make myself pray for others, but I'll give it a shot) that God will enable you to know Him and follow Him. > So how can I be expected to believe? Why should I be punished for not > believing? Again, it's a question of commitment to go in a direction other than entirely on your own. As for punishment: C.S. Lewis, I think quoting another author, remarked that the doors of Hell are locked on the INSIDE; i.e. that Hell is not so much a place to which God condemns people as a place, or a state, which people choose themselves -- because they choose to prefer themselves to God, and they lock God out. > The Christian I was talking to had a theory: > There is no good reason to believe in God. You either do or you > don't -- and you don't really have any voluntary control over the > matter. What God is doing is selecting for those who happen to believe > correctly. Perhaps believing correctly stems from some mysterious > faculty possessed by certain humans, and that is what God is selecting > for. > Now, that doesn't please me very much, and I am still left wondering > about this belief business. What sense does it make to exhort someone > to believe? As if someone had a choice. Not to start the omniscience/free will debate again, but I disagree with your Christian acquaintance. Numerous times in the Bible, people are exhorted to choose whether or not to serve God. I doubt whether God would inspire His chosen leaders to make such exhortations if in fact no choice was possible. One needs to make that choice, to repent (the Greek word for which means literally "change the mind"), to turn from concentration on self to concentration on serving God and serving other people. Note that this is not a one-time occurrence, but something that must be done every day, indeed every hour, or at even finer granularity. > I mentioned these "spiritual experiences" that seem to form the foundations > of people's belief. In every case I know of, the experiences supported > only a very small part of what the person ended up believing. I am left > with my original question: Why do people believe as they do? To be honest, part of the reason people adopt various doctrines is that they are taught them by other people. In fact this is probably the major reason why people believe the various doctrines ABOUT God. However, Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide believers into all truth; so there's that aspect at work also. As to why people believe in God Himself: All I can do on the net is encourage you to try committing yourself to God (as I've already discussed), try to act Christlike to those about you (more so than you may already be doing), and pray for God to meet your needs (which may include a revelation, or which may include patience to wait for such a revelation). I really feel that this whole reply is inadequate, but it's the best I can come up with this fast; I just hope and pray that it will do some good. -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|ihnp4|decvax|harpo|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq One man's data is another man's garbage.