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From: rlr@pyuxn.UUCP (Rich Rosen)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Comments (1) - Who's saving whom? + A final word on name-dropping
Message-ID: <581@pyuxn.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 18-Apr-84 12:45:27 EST
Article-I.D.: pyuxn.581
Posted: Wed Apr 18 12:45:27 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 19-Apr-84 03:46:55 EST
Organization: Bell Communications Research, Piscataway N.J.
Lines: 40

[THE FOLLOWING ARTICLES, LABELLED "Comments (n)..." ARE BASED ON BROADER
RESPONSES TO A LARGE NUMBER OF ARTICLES, INCLUDING A NUMBER FROM JEFF
SARGENT.  I HAVE TRIED TO BREAK THEM UP INTO PIECES AND TO KEEP THE PIECES
SHORT.  IF THERE IS SOME REDUNDANCY WITH OTHER ARTICLES, INCLUDING MY OWN,
I APOLOGIZE, BUT THESE ARTICLES ARE THE RESULT OF EXTENDED PREPARATION.]

Again the "famous cases" (Jeff Sargent's words) of those who achieved things
by believing in god, those who, starting from a rationalist perspective,
learned the truth about god.  My own name was even thrown in by Scott Bowyer
as an example, paraphrasing:  "I was once like Rich Rosen but now I believe in
god; you don't think someone like Rich Rosen would turn to god without some
hard evidence?"  (This is actually the example that prompted my previous
article on "Christians changing their tune".)  I sort of resent having my
name bandied about in this manner, but I'll accept you "using my name in vain"
:-) if you can point directly to this "hard evidence".  If you're unable to
produce it, I'll then assume that you were *not* "like Rich Rosen", as you
claimed (not that "being like" me would be anything to be *proud* of...),
and that "hard evidence" was not prerequisite to the "change" you experienced.

But getting back to the particular claims that reference a particular name as
the source of redemption through belief.  What those who make claims like
"Christ changed my life" continually fail to see is that Moslems, Jews,
Buddhists, *and* atheists have had their lives changed, too.  To say that
"Christ" is the root cause of the effect denies the changes in other people,
including atheists.  One Christian went so far as to proclaim "I don't know
about the results of faith in other religions (or none), but why look for other
ways when we have one that works here?"  Very bold assumptions here.  (Why
look for new theories to explain the universe when we know that the earth is
the center of the universe?)  It is apparent that this person has found the
answer, and that others who have found "truth" have obviously been misguided,
despite the fact that they get the same result following their own way :-).
(It is very easy in a circular self-referential belief system to then make a
statement like "God loves everyone, and is helping everyone, but it *is*
Christ who is doing it..."  The notion of "good dreams" is precisely the same
sort of rationalization.)  It appears that, if we were to look for the common
factor, the only one that sticks out is that all the people that changed had a
brain that might have engendered the change.
-- 
Pardon me for ...  oh, never mind!!
					Rich Rosen    pyuxn!rlr