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From: amigo@iwlc6.UUCP (John Hobson)
Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish
Subject: Re: Yehoyaqim Shemtob Martillo
Message-ID: <130@iwlc6.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 13-Apr-84 11:14:14 EST
Article-I.D.: iwlc6.130
Posted: Fri Apr 13 11:14:14 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 15-Apr-84 07:18:17 EST
References: <127@iwlc6.UUCP> <413@ihuxt.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
Lines: 94

[>> is Hobson, > is Martillo]

>>I get the definite impression that he hates Germans, Russians,
>>Poles, Greeks, Muslims, Christians, Nazis, Jewish women who marry 
>>Goyim (hi, Mom), and is not too fond of assimilated Jews and
>>Ashkenazim.  (He describes himself as being somewhat pro-Ashkenazi
>>for a Sephardi.  I would hate to see some of the anti-Ashkenazi
>>ones.)  I am still bristling from the time over a month ago when he
>>called my grandfather "low, common, vulgar, and ignorant" purely
>>and simply because he (my grandfather) was an assimilated Austrian
>>Jew.  When I asked him to elaborate, he explained why he felt that
>>way, but apparently it never occurred to him to apologize.

>You stated your request for an apology in such a way that to apologize
>would have given approval for the behavior or your immediate Jewish
>family.  Judaism would be a wimp religion if it did not set up standards
>for Jews and then strictly condemn those who violate those standards.  I
>am willing to apologize for low, common and vulgar.  Your own description
>of your grandfather implied Jewishly ignorant.  Therefore, I will change
>ignorant to having severe gaps in knowledge.

My recollection of my letter to you is different, but I will accept
the apology given here. However:

>Until then letters like your "der Stuermer" letter which from your
>perspective are equivalent to confusing Jews and Nazis will
>provoke slightly irrational reactions.

I do not like having my letter confused with "Der Stuermer" (for
those of you who are not familiar with this periodical, it was a
pornographic, virulently anti-Semitic, hate sheet published by the
Nazi Julius Streicher.  Goebbels hated it because of its crudeness,
but Streicher had too much of an "in" with Hitler for it to be
suppressed.)

>>He said "I am unimpressed by Ashenazic yihus (ancestry)", but
>>when he mentioned his grandfather, he made sure to give him his
>>title of "Hakim."

>The title is hakam.  Actually, my grandfather was a dayan. Hakam is the
>least way I can describe my grandfather without then insulting him.

I stand corrected.  My point was that he appears to look down on
Ashkenazi ancestry while being proud of his Shephardic ancestry.

>>Yes, many, even most Germans, have been anti-Semites, but I do
>>not have an a priori hatred of them because of it.

>I am not sure that most Germans have been antisemites.  I think most
>Germans who have lived never met a Jew, and probably suffered from a
>theological anti-Semitism which probably would have vanished upon meeting
>a Jew.

All right, I may have exaggerated when I said most (I'm not sure either).

>>Maybe Andy is right, and there are legitimate reasons for hating
>>other people, but whole nationalities simply because the persons in
>>that country are members of that nationality?

>Honesty is more important.  Lessing as a friend of Moses Mendelson
>wrote a play called Natan der Weise.  Natan (based on Mendelson)
>was supposed to represent what the Jews would become if
>restrictions upon Jews were lifted.  Essentially Jews would give
>up all their disgusting Jewish characteristics and become decent
>Europeans.  This is hatred masquerading as love.  Perhaps, liberal
>Germans should have been more honest about their feelings for the
>next 150 years.  At best the hatred might have worked itself out
>rather than exploding.  At worst the Jews would not have deluded
>themselves about the coming holocaust and might have been quicker 
>to leave.

I'm not sure I completely follow this.  Are you saying that if Lessing
and the other 19th century Liberal Germans had been really honest,
they would have said they really hated Jews?  You just said that if
Germans actually knew Jews, then their anti-Semitism would vanish. 
Lessing, being a friend of Mendelson, had evidently met at least
one Jew.  There seems to be a contradiction here somewhere.

>Peace is only made between enemies.  Pretending love when their is
>none is dangerous.

I'm not sure how to answer this.  I must consider it further.

I do not want to be seen as attacking Mr. Martillo.  After all, as
Hillel teaches us, "Do not judge your fellow man until you have
been in his position" (Pirke Avot 2:5).  I do tend to see him as
arrogant (and I suppose that it takes one to know one) and rather
intemperate in much of what he says.  I will try to keep this on a
level above that of heedless personal mudslinging, as I see him
also trying to do.
				John Hobson
				AT&T Bell Labs--Naperville, IL
				ihnp4!iwlc6!amigo