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From: topher@cyb-eng.UUCP (Topher Eliot)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: feminism and power
Message-ID: <354@cyb-eng.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 28-Mar-84 20:08:29 EST
Article-I.D.: cyb-eng.354
Posted: Wed Mar 28 20:08:29 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 28-Mar-84 07:33:10 EST
References: <254@ubc-vision.CDN>
Organization: Cyb Systems, Austin, Texas
Lines: 47


    Farzin Mokhtarian (mokhtar@ubc-vision.UUCP)  says:
>   Final thought: Women might have been content thinking that they have the
> choice (or power) of rejecting an undesirable man if asked and hence they
> don't need to push for more in that respect. That kind of thinking would
> fail to see the fact that the final control of the selection process still
> remains with the man. Yes, she can reject but she can reject only those who
> have already selected her. The `power' of `rejecting' is secondary compared
> to the power of `selecting'.    
>    Perhaps an example would help even though differences exist. If you were
> to `pick' the best `apple' from a basket, which one of the following 
> alternatives would offer you greater freedom:
>   (a) Simply being able to get any apple you want, (or at least be able to try
>       for whichever you want, or,
>   (b) Having to wait for someone else to offer you only some of those apples
>       and only be able to accept or reject that offering ?
	
This subject has been mentioned many times here, but I haven't noticed
anybody make this point (which I will do with a cutesy metaphor):  this
situation is a double-edged sword, but it only has a handle at one end.

Specifically, both men and women can suffer from this society-imposed taboo
against women being "forward".  Women suffer as described above.  Many men
(especially shy men) suffer from the continual low-level demoralization
that comes from being told "no" with whatever frequency, and rarely having
the pleasure of being approached by an appealing woman.  (I suspect that
most women don't begin to appreciate the long-term effects of this situation
on men.)

But think about who is really in control here, when we get down to the
nitty gritty.  There is very little positive action a man can take to make
it so that a woman has asked a man out with good results.  There is a
positive action a woman can take to make it so that a woman has asked a man
out with good results:  she can ask a man out.  Sure, she might get bad results.
Welcome to the club.  This is what happens to men all the time.  Try again.
Until women take it upon themselves to start asking, things aren't going
to change, and, quite frankly,
<FLAME ON>
I don't see how women are justified in complaining about this taboo!  If
you don't like it, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.  DON'T WHINE!  In this particular
regard, women are only as powerless as they choose to be.
<FLAME OFF>

Cheers,
Topher Eliot
Cyb Systems, Austin, TX
ihnp4!ut-sally!cyb-eng!topher