Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/6/84; site ihuxr.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!we13!ihnp4!ihuxr!pem1a
From: pem1a@ihuxr.UUCP (Tom Portegys)
Newsgroups: net.ai,net.philosophy
Subject: Re: New topic for discussion
Message-ID: <1064@ihuxr.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 3-May-84 19:55:34 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihuxr.1064
Posted: Thu May  3 19:55:34 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 5-May-84 00:23:03 EDT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
Lines: 49


Phaedrus' article made me think of a story in the book "The
Mind's Eye", by Hofstadter and Dennett, in which the relationship
between subjective experience and physical substance is explored.
Can't remember the story's name but good reading.  Some other
thoughts:

One aspect of experience and substance is how to determine when
a piece of substance is experiencing something.  This is good to
know because then you can fiddle with the substance until it stops
experiencing and thereby get an idea of what it was about the 
substance which allowed it to experience.

The first reasonable choice for the piece of substance might be
yourself, since most people presume that they can tell when they
are having a conscious experience.  Unfortunately, being both the
measuree and measurer could have its drawbacks, since some experiments
could simulaneously zap both experience and the ability to know or not
know if an experience exists.  All sorts of problems here.  Could you
just THINK you were experiencing something, but not really?

What this calls for, it seems to me, is two people.  One to measure 
and one to experience.  Of course this would all be based on the
assumption that it is even possible to measure such an elusive
thing as experience.  Some people might even object to the notion
that subjective experiences are possible at all.

The next thing is to choose an experience.
This is tricky.  If you chose self-awareness as the experience, then
you would have to decide if being self-aware in one state is the same
as being self-aware in a different state.  Can the experience be the
same even if the object of the experience is not?

Then, a measuring criterion would have to be established whereby 
someone could measure if an experience was happening or not.  This
could range from body and facial expressions to neurological readings.
Another would be a Turing test-like setup:  put the subject into a
box with certain I/O channels, and have protocols made up for
measuring things.  This would allow you to REALLY get in there and
fiddle with things, like replacing body parts, etc.

These are some of the thoughts that ran through my head after reading
the Phaedrus article.  I think I thought them, and if I didn't, how
did this article get here?

                            Tom Portegys, Bell Labs, ihlpg!portegys

(ihlpg currently does not have netnews, that's why this is coming from
ihuxr).