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From: dyer@wivax.UUCP (Stephen Dyer)
Newsgroups: net.motss,net.jokes.d
Subject: Re: REAL men...
Message-ID: <19479@wivax.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 4-May-84 19:56:57 EDT
Article-I.D.: wivax.19479
Posted: Fri May  4 19:56:57 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 5-May-84 07:33:56 EDT
References: <2174@ihuxf.UUCP>, <252@masscomp.UUCP>
Organization: Wang Institute, Tyngsboro, Ma.  01879
Lines: 60

	>Just imagine this situation:
	>
	>    Fred Flamethrower spews forth some crap in some netnews group:
	>
	>	"Men whose last names begin
	>	with the letter T are all fairies."
	>
	>Sure as the sun rises in the morning, some other person, either an
	>irate Mr. T or a Mr/s. !T liberal, will speak up in defense of
	>T he-manliness.
	>
	>Problem here is that any self respecting thinking person will realize
	>that the problem is not with T-men, it's with Fred Flamethrower, and
	>the solution isn't inane and heartfelt blue-faced defense in
	>net.jokes.d, the solution is to ignore Fred.

The problem with Andy's reductio-ad-absurdum argument is that it doesn't
represent the situation that fortune!crane was attacking.  One has no problem
knowing what to do with Fred Flamethrower.  What IS a problem is the much
subtler offensiveness of a joke like "Gay Blade."  Here's the joke again:

	>If REAL men don't shave (except with chainsaws, rototillers, etc),
	>then perhaps Gillette should market....
	>
	>		    the  gay blade

Now, I submit that most people are not going to react to this joke in
quite the same way that Mr. Crane did.  Probably many smiled just a bit.
Some may have thought it was just dumb, but most "self-respecting" people
did not take any offense.  If one looks at the implications of the joke,
Crane's response is more than a "blue-faced defense."  He was attacking the
kind of thinking which implies that "gay men != real men."  This is such an
old stereotype that many people don't even think about it--it's just accepted
as part of the punchline.  Same goes for the Joan Rivers/Carson/Eddie Murphy
comedy routines.

It is entirely appropriate for someone to point out the sociological ur-text
in such jokes.  Trouble is that often people like Crane are judged as
"humorless."  Well, this has been applied again and again to most anyone
who takes offense at jokes which use some group as the butt of humor--that is,
UNTIL the values espoused by the joke are no longer held by society.  Thus,
witness the reaction to BLKTRAN: an entire site was taken off the net
temporarily.  Try to crack a Polish joke, or a joke which devalues the role
of women in society.  They don't get too many laughs anymore.  Unfortunately,
gay people don't yet enjoy the kind of cultural consonance which would enjoin
someone from cracking a joke like "Gay Blade", not even in the young-(sub)urban-
professional milieu of USENET.

So, how SHOULD one react?  The civil-rights movement didn't get where it is
today by staying quiet, nor did the women in the women's movement acquiesce
when offensive images of women were offered to the American public--they
spoke out against such icons, and it is that speech which helped catalyze
the change in societal values.  Same goes for jokes which use stereotypes
to delimit the roles that gay people play in society.  We can only hope
that one day people react to ALL such jokes the way Andy recommends we respond
to Fred Flamethrower.  But, that day ain't here yet.
-- 
/Steve Dyer
decvax!bbncca!sdyer
sdyer@bbncca