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From: ignatz@ihuxx.UUCP (Dave Ihnat, Chicago, IL)
Newsgroups: net.misc,net.legal
Subject: Re: Password hacker gets probation (& other electronic crimes)
Message-ID: <739@ihuxx.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 2-May-84 20:21:07 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihuxx.739
Posted: Wed May  2 20:21:07 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 4-May-84 01:08:06 EDT
References: <90@tilt.UUCP>, <308@ihu1g.UUCP> <822@ihuxw.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
Lines: 77

Concerning the response by sparrow to Bob Fishell's note:

	Bob Fishell states:
	
	   Computer security may be a matter for the law, but in my opinion,
	   any organization that is too stupid, lazy, or cheap to implement
	   effective security measures deserves to get their passwords hacked.
	
	Is this for real????  Using the same logic I could say that anyone
	who is too stupid, lazy or cheap to implement effective security
	measures on their [house|car|person] deserves to have same be
	[destroyed|stolen|mugged|raped] by some ambitious criminal. 

Ah...well, consider: I leave my car keys in the ignition, the door
unlocked, and the window down.  Then I come and cry to the police that
my car was stolen.  Sorry, Charlie...they'll take the report, and try
and catch the guy.  DON'T EXPECT SYMPATHY...they'll say you deserved
it.  Not only that, the criminal has some defense on grounds of unreasonable
temptation.  Stupidity usually deserves some sort of negative reinforcement.
That doesn't mean that what you deserve is what is morally right or
legal.  SO...from a legal point of view, the police and D.A.
prosecute.  Personally, they probably think you're batty.

	Maybe I am old fashioned but I think humans have a right to expect that
	their property and privacy be respected and anyone who violates this
	is a criminal.

Right...those who violate your property and privacy are criminals.  I
thoroughly agree.  But the right to expect the respect of same?  No.  It
would be nice, but live in a big City and see how far you go if you
EXPECT it.  You may reasonably expect your property, privacy, and
self to be resonably PROTECTED before violation, by the police--but
they can't be everywhere.  You may expect PUNISHMENT for criminals
after violation, by the law and the legal system.  Does
this mean you should take no precautions whatsoever?  I think not.
You severely weaken your case in the auto theft above if the situation
can be proven to be as outlined; why should it be different for
computer theft?

	And who is to decide what is effective measures??
	To a professional jewel thief who can break any alarm system there
	are no effectives measures.  Does this give them the right to try
	to steal any jewels they please??  

Be reasonable; we've already provided for this in the law.  Those who
make the laws decide what's reasonable, based on expert testimony.
The courts exist to interpret this on a case-by-case basis, tempered
with precedent.  No, this doesn't give them the right to try and steal
anything; but it doesn't absolve the victim of the responsibility of
proper preparation and precaution.
	
	I disagree with Bob.  I think the hacker getting probation got
	nothing more than a slap on the wrists.  I don't see a big 
	difference between picking a lock and breaking a computer security
	system.  It's called 'breaking and entering' and should be 
	treated as a felony.  Just because computers are your profession
	doesn't give you special privileges over those who are simply
	users with average intelligence.
	
						sparrow

The point I'm trying to make--the only reason I'm getting involved in
this at all--is that the hacker wasn't the only one who should have
been punished.  Ever hear of attractive nuisance?  And don't consider
probation on a felony charge nothing...look up what you LOSE.  Not to
mention you and I pay to prosecute, when the company or school that
was so negligent pays nothing.  I firmly believe that, for every case
of this sort, an investigation should be conducted determining whether
or not unreasonably lax security measures contributed to the
situation, and if so, the organization responsible should shoulder
some part of the cost of the legal actions, if not all.

Just because you own a company doesn't give you license to be
incompetent, negligent, and careless and expect full restitution.

					Dave Ihnat
					ihuxx!ignatz