Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 (Denver Mods 4/2/84) 6/24/83; site drutx.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!vaxine!wjh12!genrad!grkermit!masscomp!clyde!burl!mgnetp!ihnp4!drutx!bees From: bees@drutx.UUCP Newsgroups: net.micro.apple Subject: INFO-MAC Articles - 8 of 8 Message-ID: <375@drutx.UUCP> Date: Wed, 23-May-84 11:30:04 EDT Article-I.D.: drutx.375 Posted: Wed May 23 11:30:04 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 25-May-84 01:02:25 EDT Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver Lines: 1798 --------------- 1) 8-May Tony Siegman Will Mac Drive a ProFile? 2) 8-May spoo%toronto.csnet@c Software/Hardware for the Mac (long) 3) 8-May Jerry E. Pournelle Toolbox equates for peons 4) 8-May mark@harvard (Mark L Re: Teaching assembly language programming, 5) 8-May STERNLIGHT Re: Toolbox equates for peons 6) 8-May Mike Brzustowicz Landscape drawing in MacPaint 7) 8-May Chad Leland Mitchell Re: Toolbox equates for peons 8) 8-May Mike Russell About color and other topics. 9) 9-May Randy Frank Re: Toolbox equates for peons 10) 9-May LEVITT%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC Toolbox equates for peons 11) 9-May Jerry E. Pournelle Toolbox equates for peons 12) 10-May Stuart Reges ImageWriter for dissertations at Stanford? 13) 10-May Duane.Williams at CM Microsoft diskless! 14) 10-May Michael Rubin getting inside the Mac.... 15) 10-May Avadis.Tevanian at C MacTerminal bugs? 16) 10-May Michael Rubin Speculations, ramblings and flame (long) 17) 10-May David.Anderson at CM WYSIWYG? 18) 10-May Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs Re: Toolbox equates for peons 19) 10-May Peter.Su at CMU-CS-G toolbox 20) 10-May Bjorn Lindskog MAC in Europe 21) 11-May Chad Leland Mitchell price 22) 11-May byard @ dca-eur 23) 11-May Richard Furuta How well is the Mac selling? 24) 11-May Alan Crosswell Re: MAC in Europe 25) 11-May Cagan.PA@XEROX.ARPA Re: Accurate Info for your column 26) 11-May "William D. Cattey" Macwrite pains 27) 11-May Kenneth Clark flame about color Macs... 28) 12-May Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs Clarification 29) 12-May Peterr%toronto.csnet The number of Macs sold 30) 12-May David.Anderson at CM Re: How well is the Mac selling? 31) 14-May Dave Farber from Compuserve 32) 14-May Dave Farber previous program -- color.bas 33) 14-May Wang Zeep Power 34) 14-May Richard Reich RE: How well is the Mac selling? 35) 14-May Jerry E. Pournelle Toolbox equates for peons 36) 14-May Andrew W. Donoho Protocol for SendOne/GetFile??? 37) 14-May Kevin.Dowling at CMU Printer 38) 14-May Chad Leland Mitchell price 39) 14-May Dave Farber Query on rs232/422 mac connectors 40) 14-May Richard Reich Message 1 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 10:54:50-CDT Return-Path: Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 7 May 84 22:12:02-PDT Date: Mon 7 May 84 22:08:18-PDT From: Tony Siegman Subject: Will Mac Drive a ProFile? To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 08:32:47-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; ...either at present, or likely later on? ------- Message 2 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 11:21:24-CDT Return-Path: Received: from csnet-relay by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 7 May 84 23:48:25-PDT Received: From toronto.csnet by csnet-relay; 8 May 84 2:19 EDT Date: 7 May 84 4:40:40-EDT (Mon) From: spoo%toronto.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa MMDF-Warning: Parse error in preceeding line at csnet-relay.arpa To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa Subject: Software/Hardware for the Mac (long) ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 08:32:49-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; While I was at a local computer center (Toronto) play- ing with the Mac, I was given a list of hardware/software that would be out, so they say, by the end of this year. Here it is: Package Application Company _____________________________________________________________________________ Accounts Payable Accounting Great Plains Software " " BPI Systems Accounts Receivable " BPI Systems " " Great Plains Software General Accounting " BPI Systems General Ledger " Great Plains Software Home Accounting " Ask Micro Payroll " BPI Systems " " Great Plains Software Small Business Accountant " C.P.U. Small Business Accounting " Continental Software The Home Accountant " " Microsoft Chart Business Graphics Microsoft The Calendar Calendar Hayden Software Database Management System Database Microrim Database/File Management " DB Master Associates Friday! " Ashton-Tate Graphics and Database " Telos Software Products Keystroke Database " Brock Software Products Keystroke Report Base " " Megafinder " Megahaus Microsoft File " Microsoft pfs: FILE " Software Publishing Corp. pfs: REPORT " " The List Manager " Hayden UNIFY " Unify NPL/database " Desktop Software dbase II " Ashton-Tate 3270/3770 Communications Datacomm Parsyst Communications System " Hayes " " Microcom Graphics terminal emulator " Creative Solutions Mac comm. package " Dilithium (!) Software Business Simulation Education Kriya Systems Education " Odesta Speed Reading " Kriya Systems The Management Edge " Human Edge Software The Negotiation Edge " " The Sales Edge " " Think Tank " Living Videotext Typing tutor " Southwestern Data Systems Typing tutor III " Sir Tech Baron Game Blue Chip Software Brain Games " Dilithium Software Dollars and Sense " Monogram Education Simulation " Harvard (Hahvahd) Associates Enchanter " Infocom Go " Hayden Infidel " Infocom Mac Tutor " Dilithium Software MacManager (business sim.) " Harvard Associates Millionaire " Blue Chip Software Planet Fall " Infocom Run for the money " Scarborough Systems Sargon III " Hayden Snake Byte " Sirius Squire " Blue Chip Software Suspended " Infocom Telofacts I " Dilithium Software Telofacts II " " The Coveted Mirror " Penguin Software The Graphic Magician " " The Quest " " Transylvania " " Tycoon " Blue Chip Software Type Attack " Sirius Software Wizardry " Simon and Schuster Zork I,II,III " Infocom Deadline " " 3780/3270 Bisync Em Hardware Winterhalter 4-Port Serial Card " UniPress Software Buffer " Tecmar " " Microtek Datatalker " Winterhalter Expansion Chassis " Tecmar IEEE 488 " " Intelligent Modem " Prometheus Products Intelligent Telephone " Artsci MacTape (tape backup) " Davong Mem. Expansion " Microtek Networking " Davong Printer Interface " Microtek Removable Cartridge Disk " Tecmar Tape/Disk drive " Davong Winchester " Tecmar Disk Drive " Davong Disk Emulation " Microtek Dr. Logo Language Digital Research Forth. Dev. System " Creative Solutions Microsoft Basic " guess who? MacProject Spreadsheet Apple 1-2-3 " Lotus Butter " Hayden Exective Productivity Tool " Execuware Financial Planning " Chang Laboratories Graph 'n Calc " Desktop Computer Software Integrated Spreadsheet " Sorcin Jack 2 " Business Solutions Microsoft Budget " Microsoft Microsoft Cash Plan " " Microsoft Fin. Analysis " " Microsoft MultiPlan " " The Planner " Hayden Estate Tax Planner Tax Aardvark/McGraw Hill Personal Tax Planner " " Professional Tax Planner " " MacWord Word Processor Apple Megaspeller " Megahaus Megawriter " " Microsoft Word " Microsoft All the above products were quoted as being available in 1984. >From the pooped paws of: Suk Lee USENET ..!{decvax,linus,allegra,ihnp4}!utcsrgv!spoo CSnet spoo at toronto ARPA "decvax!utcsrgv!spoo"@BERKELEY Message 3 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 11:48:54-CDT Return-Path: Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 00:40:19-PDT Date: 8 May 1984 03:27-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Toolbox equates for peons To: REICH @ NYU-ACF1 cc: INFO-MAC @ SUMEX-AIM In-reply-to: Msg of 3 May 84 18:34 EDT from Richard Reich ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 08:32:53-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Fascin ating, iosn't it. Two of my shills, both highly wualified programmer types, have been rejected as developers. Except for BIG BUSINESS types who get along nicely with the new Apple Image, exactly who HAS BEEN ACCEPTED as a Developer? What are teh criteria? Or is this another -- well, there are terms for it. TI told hobbyistsz and hackers to drop dead, twice. Long live the 99/4A Message 4 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 17:04:39-CDT Return-Path: Received: from harvard.UUCP (HARVARD.ARPA.#Internet) by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 09:03:22-PDT Received: by harvard.UUCP (4.12/4.27) id AA01735; Tue, 8 May 84 12:04:36 edt Date: Tue, 8 May 84 12:04:36 edt From: mark@harvard (Mark Lentczner) Message-Id: <8405081604.AA01735@harvard.UUCP> To: FISCHER@RUTGERS, TIM@MIT-MC Subject: Re: Teaching assembly language programming, Mac style Cc: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 14:21:53-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Grrrrrrrreat Idea! I really like the idea of using the sound capabilities to work the way FM radio near the processor does! I have written several compositions that involve FM radio & CPU. I'm going to look back to that stuff and see how I worked it... Who knows... Sound Debugging (all puns intended) I Like That! -mark electronic music studio music department harvard university cambridge, ma 02138 decvax!genrad!wjh12!harvard!mark Message 5 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 17:30:45-CDT Return-Path: Received: from USC-ECL.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 11:03:24-PDT Date: Tue 8 May 84 10:59:52-PDT From: STERNLIGHT Subject: Re: Toolbox equates for peons To: POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA, REICH@NYU-ACF1.ARPA cc: INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA, STERNLIGHT@USC-ECL.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Jerry E. Pournelle " of Tue 8 May 84 00:27:00-PDT ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 14:21:57-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Jerry, you're at it again. Because two "of my shills, both highly qualified programmer types, have been rejected as developers" you infer that "BIG BUSINESS types who get along nicely with the new Apple Image" are the main accepted developers. Cowdoody. I have a consulting firm of two, including myself. We are not only certified, but also registered developers (direct access to Apple, electronic mail account, etc.) How did we do it. Simple. We have a product already in existence which has been sold to several buyers of substance, and runs on an existing (IBM PC) machine, and we can prove it to Apple. We have NO image, just product. Nobody ever heard of us except our customers and others in our professional field (economics). We didn't know anybody at Apple nor did we meet anyone there prior to becoming registered developers. We have no vast corporate or financial resources. We're just legitimate developers. But I'll bet Apple is flooded by applications from programmers who say they are developers yet have not got any legitimate product out there. Everyone would LOVE to get the developer discount on hardware and software but only actual developers do. What about 'new' developers who have not yet produced and sold product? I guess they first have to create at least one product and market it successfully before Apple will accept them. Same in your profession. You can say you're a writer all you want but until you've had something published, I'll believe you're a writer; your mother will believe you're a writer, but writers? Isn't it about time you got off your (sometimes virulent) anti-Apple prejudice and took facts for what they were, assuming a legitimate explanation rather than base motives unless and until proven otherwise? --david-- ------- Message 6 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 17:55:47-CDT Return-Path: Received: from aids-unix by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 11:45:58-PDT Date: 8 May 84 11:40:51 PDT (Tue) From: Mike Brzustowicz Subject: Landscape drawing in MacPaint To: info-mac@sumex-aim Cc: mab@aids-unix ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 14:22:01-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I have a question from off the net: "I want to use MacPaint to draw pictures that are wider than they are tall [landscape instead of the usual portrait]. I know I can rotate lassoed portions of a picture, but any such rotated portion of the picture that falls outside the window gets lost. (Basically, I want to turn my piece of paper sideways). Anyone know how to do this?" Thanks! -Mike Message 7 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 18:17:38-CDT Return-Path: Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 12:55:25-PDT Date: Tue 8 May 84 12:51:24-PDT From: Chad Leland Mitchell Subject: Re: Toolbox equates for peons To: POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA cc: M.CHAD@SU-SIERRA.ARPA, info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Jerry E. Pournelle " of Tue 8 May 84 00:27:00-PDT ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 14:22:10-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Let us remember what the certified developer program is all about. If one is accepted as a certified developer, one can get hardware at a discount. Period. Without certified developer status, one can still buy Macs and Lisas, and can get Inside Macintosh and all necessary tools. There is a special developer status (something like "registered" I think) which allows you to use electronic mail, etc. for help but that costs and I doubt that many "hackers" would be interested. Apple seems to have a simple formula for accepting certified developers. If it seems that a person/company is likely to use the machines purchased to develop software which will sell or otherwise have wide distribution on the Mac then they qualify. If it seems that the Certified Developer status is going to be used simply to buy cheap machines for personal use, then why should they qualify? The application of this test seems to also follow a simple formula. If you have a company (size >=1) which has developed and marketed any software then you probably qualify. If you have a company (size >=1) which has a plan for some interesting software and some kind of development schedule then you p[robably qualify. If you are an individual with similar qualifications then you probably qualify although not quite as easily. I assume that you don't expect Apple to just give away certified developer status to anyone who wants to buy a machine. That would be equivalent to just placing all hardware on a massive discount (which while we would all like would be improbable as long as they continue to sell every Mac they make as fast as they can ship it). EVERY person I know who 1) Has a company name and has developed and sold software or 2) Demonstrated to Apple that he/she was a very competent programmer with plans for a real product has been granted certified developer status upon applying. Those who have demonstrated competency but had no plans have not been accepted (at least on the first try). Of course if you buy some hardware and start putting a product together and then apply you will probably get accepted with flying colors... Chad ------- Message 8 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 19:13:03-CDT Return-Path: Received: from UCB-VAX.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 14:22:12-PDT Received: from ucbjade.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (ucbjade.ARPA) by UCB-VAX.ARPA (4.24/4.27) id AA20893; Tue, 8 May 84 14:21:32 pdt Received: from ucbpopuli.CC.Berkeley.ARPA by ucbjade.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (4.14.3/4.16) id AA17726; Tue, 8 May 84 14:22:03 pdt Received: by ucbpopuli.CC.Berkeley.ARPA (4.14.3/4.16) id AA08526; Tue, 8 May 84 14:17:04 pdt Message-Id: <8405082117.AA08526@ucbpopuli.CC.Berkeley.ARPA> Date: Tue, 08 May 84 17:05:48 EDT From: Mike Russell Reply-To: G.BROWNVM=UN502080@BERKELEY To: INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM Subject: About color and other topics. ReSent-date: Tue 8 May 84 16:41:47-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; In response to the messages about color, what I've heard was from John Sculley (President of Apple). He held an informational meeting here at Brown, and said that there will indeed be a Color-Mac eventually, but to have made the original Mac color would have meant a release date substantially later than when it was released. He said that eventually there will indeed be a Color-Mac. Atkinson's DEBUGGER: It appears that Bill Atkinson left a debugger in MacPaint. It was found in version 0.95, though it may be in all versions. It was found twice by screwing around with the keyboard while in MacPaint, but can't be found again. Anyone with any information about it? What I know is this: While 'A' was selected (for text), and Command-Q was chosen a new menu bar appeared with the title DEBUG, and if it was pulled down, three selections appeared: HEAP, WORST STACK, and MONKEY TRAP. Certain keyboard commands did things also. I am obviously missing steps, in that it can't be reproduced. Any help would be appreciated. -Mike Russell (G.BROWNVM=UN502080@BERKELEY) Message 9 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 11:38:40-CDT Return-Path: Received: from UTAH-20.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 17:50:53-PDT Date: Tue 8 May 84 18:49:48-MDT From: Randy Frank Subject: Re: Toolbox equates for peons To: STERNLIGHT@USC-ECL.ARPA, POURNE@MIT-MC.ARPA, REICH@NYU-ACF1.ARPA cc: INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "STERNLIGHT " of Tue 8 May 84 16:30:45-MDT ReSent-date: Wed 9 May 84 09:04:25-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; This is totally in line with what Apple told us at the recent developers/ consortium meeting. They currently have over 1000 registered developers, and, in order to be able to handle the crowd, have tentatively put a hold on accepting new developers EXCEPT those w/ proven records in developing software. This makes emminent sense to me: everyone and his aunt and uncle seems to want to become a Mac developer. Apple has a choice in diluting the amount of support given to developers by allowing an uncontrolled number of them, or can attempt to qualify developers and provide a higher level of support. It seems that if Apple is interested in seeing software out quickly for the Mac (which certain people such as Mr. Pournelle seem to regularly complain isn't happening fast enough), what they're doing is exactly on target. The last thing that Apple needs to do is waste effort on every random who has a half assed idea for Mac software. The reality of this world is that, especially if the goal is getting software out there quickly, that putting your eggs in the basket of established developers will probably win. This may unfortunately mean that some good new ideas get lost (or more probably delayed). However, the Mac will make it commerically during the next 6 months largely on the basis of the popular existing packages being ported to the Mac. From that perspective what Apple is doing is totally correct. ------- Message 10 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 11:59:30-CDT Return-Path: <@MIT-MC:LEVITT@MIT-OZ> Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Tue 8 May 84 23:46:08-PDT Date: Wed, 9 May 1984 02:39 EDT Message-ID: From: LEVITT%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA To: "Jerry E. Pournelle" Subject: Toolbox equates for peons cc: info-mac%MIT-OZ@MIT-MC.ARPA In-reply-to: Msg of 8 May 1984 03:27-EDT from Jerry E. Pournelle ReSent-date: Wed 9 May 84 09:04:27-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; ...wualified [sic] programmer types, have been rejected as developers. ...exactly who HAS BEEN ACCEPTED as a Developer? What are teh [s ic] criteria? Yes, my sentiments. I joined this list a bit late, and I wondered if there had been an ongoing poll. I know one designer from Ithaca who's been certified for 1+ years, and one Palo Alto insider. But I know various people who've been ignored or rejected. Is this temporary or is it a policy? West coast friends have claimed instant receipt of development tools, even without a business plan. The Apple people seem to know that widespread support for developers is crucial, so they encourage their friends. But some proven east coast software companies have slipped between the cracks, because they've never met an Apple person. Is this just early disorganization, or is it understood that the cost of providing documentation and updates widely is too high? That would seem short sighted. Message 11 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 12:22:17-CDT Return-Path: Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 01:28:16-PDT Date: 9 May 1984 04:27-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Toolbox equates for peons To: STERNLIGHT @ USC-ECL cc: INFO-MAC @ SUMEX-AIM, REICH @ NYU-ACF1 In-reply-to: Msg of Tue 8 May 84 10:59:52-PDT from STERNLIGHT ReSent-date: Wed 9 May 84 09:04:29-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; virulent cow pucky. I don't care a tinkers' damn for or against Apple or any other company. I do care that claims have some basis in reality; that claims to reverence by the hobbyist commuknity be based on something substantial; that claims to some special status have some basis. If IBM had brought out a limited memory, small screen, single drive system with proprietary operating system, charged $150 for the system documents needed to do anything particularly useful with it, helped people put out a bunch of $14.95 to $19.95 books that contain almost no real information (but were almost certainly supported by early copies of and access to the machines prior to the rest of the world getting them): whould IBM have been proclaimed Good Guys? I completely agree: the Mac is fun. For a student with $1000 it's probably a darned good buy for playing about with doing homework, writing letters, etc. You will still need a real calculator for your desk since the Mac one doesn't even have elementary functions; you'll have to wait if you want to load up basic and use that; you will have to find a printer if you want to turn in the homework; but it's a nice buy. For "the rest of us" who don't know much about cmputers and have been waiting to get one until something very useful and easy to use came out, I might have a different recommendation at $3500 (by the time you get a useful configuration). It was not me who put forth the Macintosh as the solution to all the world's computer problems. On the other hand, i have a strong interest in seeing people happy with their machines; and while I have heard a great deal of praise from computer scientists who see the potential and like the DIRECTION the machine seems to point to, and a lesser amount from new users who are very pleased to poke around and find the fish and the frog and other pictures and play with fonts, I do not hear such hjappy noises from "the rest of us." It was not me who claimed there would be enormous piles of software by April. As to the "Developer" status, I hardly care; but again there were these exhortations given at shows and prior to the release of the machine, and lots of talk about it. People were encouraged to apply; later, they find, they should not have been. Okay by me. I would myself thnk that if Apple sold Macintoshes to every random Ph.D. who wanted to get one as a developer (and who had already persuaded the company he consults for to buy a Lisa for his project) then, given that they do not lose money on the discounted price anyway, they probably wouldn't go broke; and they might get themselves a few people out there who can deliver some software. Availability of applications software is going to make or break the machine; I cannot thnk that long delays in processing "developer applications" followed by turndowns is going to get the hobbyists and hackers writing up a storm. Sure: Apple will lose a little money to people just trying to get machines cheap; but it only takes one VisiCalc to make a product successful. At the moment that applications program has yet to be written. Maybe, just maybe, something else will catch up faster than Apple suspects. Message 12 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 10:48:17-CDT Return-Path: Received: from SU-SCORE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 14:32:33-PDT Date: Wed 9 May 84 14:28:23-PDT From: Stuart Reges Subject: ImageWriter for dissertations at Stanford? To: info-mac@SU-SCORE.ARPA Office: Margaret Jacks 210, 497-9798 ReSent-date: Wed 9 May 84 15:06:24-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I just came from an informational meeting put on by the Stanford people who coordinate the Mac purchasing/support at Stanford. They announced that they have been talking to the Graduate Program Office about ImageWriter output, asking whether it would be acceptable for dissertations. The response was a definitive maybe. The people at GPO did not say no, but they were not terribly pleased with the output. It sounds like they will accept it if everything else is perfect. The people at GPO said they liked New York and Geneva 9 point fonts best. They also liked New York 12 point font, but not as much. They haven't seen 10 point output, though. It was also reported that a new ribbon does not produce best results (characters look filled in). They suggest a medium-worn ribbon (after, say, 100 pages of output). ------- Message 13 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 11:24:04-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-IUS.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 14:07:07-PDT Date: 9 May 1984 17:04:41-EDT From: Duane.Williams at CMU-CS-IUS Subject: Microsoft diskless! ReSent-date: Wed 9 May 84 15:06:22-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; A local computer dealer told me that Microsoft Word and Chart are now ready for release, but Microsoft can't ship them out because they can't get disks to put them on! Apparently, Apple has cornered the market on disks for the Mac. Message 14 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 20:00:46-CDT Return-Path: Received: from COLUMBIA-20.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 19:06:51-PDT Date: Wed 9 May 84 22:06:45-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: getting inside the Mac.... To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:31-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Tips on how to open the thing up: Make sure the Torx T-15 screwdriver you get has an extra long shaft ( >= 5 inches, the usual ones are only 3-4 inches). This is needed to reach the two screws way back under the handle. Alternatively you can get a Torx bit on a 1/4" drive socket and use an extender, or buy a normal Torx driver and cut the handle down. There is NO screw behind the Apple decal! That is a myth, like the one about the left-hand-threaded light bulbs on New York subways. There are only five screws: two near the bottom (marked with ! icon), one in the battery compartment, and two under the handle. When you remove all five screws the case still won't come off, because it's fitted very tightly. Pry it open with something blunt, like a butter knife. If you have the programmer's switch installed, it will tend to hang up on the aluminum-foil shielding behind the I/O ports. Be careful. On the video board (left side) there are adjustments for picture width and height. If your Mac has very wide margins, you can make the picture bigger. Just be sure you keep the aspect ratio square -- while doing the adjusting, have MacPaint running with a large square drawn on the screen, and use a ruler. Random observations on the interior design: The frame is still designed for the 5.25" Twiggy drive -- they mounted the 3.5" drive on a Twiggy-sized bracket so it would reach the screw holes. The case is nice heavy stuff, with a thick coating of conductive paint on the inside, almost obscuring the signatures of all the designers (that's NOT a myth!). As all the phantom drawings suggest, the right side of the case is almost empty. Enough room for a memory board or even a second disk drive. Probably not enough for a Winchester, though. ------- Message 15 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 20:18:50-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 20:53:55-PDT Date: 9 May 1984 23:45:17-EDT From: Avadis.Tevanian at CMU-CS-SPICE Subject: MacTerminal bugs? ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:33-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I've been using MacTerminal (alpha minus something), and have a couple of questions... First, previous mailings to this list have indicated support for insert character. What is the escape sequence for this... the vt200 escape sequence of [ @ almost works, but not quite. Second, how is the file transfer stuff supposed to work? In fact, does it work? Third, there seems to be a very minor bug in the cursor control. If you do something in a dialog box, then there is a chance that MacTerminal will leave a stray cursor in its current position. As near as I can figure, you pull down a menu when the cursor is either on or off, this stops it from blinking. Then when you are done with the dialog box, the program is confused as to whether the cursor is really on or off. Assuming that the cursor is drawn using an XOR operation, it can potentially leave the character inverted. Avie Message 16 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 20:36:44-CDT Return-Path: Received: from COLUMBIA-20.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Wed 9 May 84 21:39:19-PDT Date: Thu 10 May 84 00:39:09-EDT From: Michael Rubin Subject: Speculations, ramblings and flame (long) To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:35-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Fairly easy software hack: a printer driver called by the vertical blanking interrupt, so you could compute while printing? Only problem is it would periodically have to read more data off disk, and I don't know if interrupt routines are allowed to do that. All the documents say the mouse is handled at such a low level that there's just no way to move the cursor somewhere else or even confine it to a particular area. Now, I can't really believe that, since the mouse just outputs a pulse for every 1/90 inch of vertical or horizontal movement, and anyhow the cursor is obviously confined to the limits of the screen. Perhaps the cursor is a sprite and handled entirely by the video interface, but that seems real unlikely. Now it may be that the mouse handler is entirely in ROM, with no trap vector so it can be overridden like the Quickdraw routines. However, the current mouse position is certainly not in ROM, so there has to be an appropriate magical POKE that will do the job....? Now that the Apple IIC ("Apple II, crushed") is out, will the FlatMac be far behind? Well, it will have to wait for a 512x342 liquid-crystal display because there's no way the Mac can output to a TV set or even a standard monitor (it doesn't use ordinary video signals). Apple is having enough trouble getting Sharp to make a 560x192 LCD for the IIC -- all they want to build are 640x200 displays for IBM-PC's and clones. Figure about 18-24 months for LCD production to catch up enough that odd sizes can be ordered. BTW, does anybody know how thick the IIC's LCD is going to be? All the magazine photos show a 3/4 front view with the unit tilted up, so the back might be anywhere from flat to pyramid-shaped. Since the Mac CPU board is just under 9x9 inches (and contains the entire workings of the machine except for the power supply and video electronics), it would fit in the same size case as the IIC. The disk drive is about 3/4" thicker, so the case would have a bulge in back. However, the drive is also narrower, which would leave about two inches of space behind the keyboard -- just right for a trackball, and perhaps a small nicad battery pack (that room might be needed for a board to control the LCD). Thoughts on the next machine in the Apple 32 line: The Mac is a neat architecture except for lack of virtual memory, but it's I/O-bound. The floppy is none too fast, and the IWM disk controller grabs the entire CPU during disk operations, which is nasty if you want to do serious multitasking. A Winchester can theoretically transfer data at 500Kbytes/sec, five times faster than the serial port can theoretically receive it. Now if the disks were only memory-mapped like the video, stealing half the memory cycles, they would be capable of at least the same transfer rate as the video -- 22Kbytes every 1/60 second, or 1200 Kbytes/sec! Well, this could be done by turning off the screen during disk I/O, but that would be even uglier than turning off interrupts. Hmmm.... the video DMA uses only one fixed piece of memory, near the low end. If the machine has at least two ranks of memory chips (256Kbytes of 64K chips, or 1Mbyte of 256K chips), the memory bus could be cut in half during the memory cycles reserved for DMA. Then while the video hardware was reading the low bank of memory, the disks (or any other devices) could be reading and writing their buffers in high memory. Some more complex disk controller than the bare IWM would be needed, equivalent to an ordinary S-100 or Multibus DMA disk controller. Perhaps the IWM could be operated by another custom chip or just some PAL's and shift registers. Another useful addition might be a smarter video controller, one that could handle multiple bit planes and put them in arbitrary places on the screen (basically giant sprites). This would be nice for windows, but great for animation. Oops, if the bit planes are transparent and you have N of them at one point on the screen, that means N memory accesses per pixel time. On the other hand, most of them probably wouldn't be transparent, and even one extra bit plane would help a lot. --From the butane torch of: Mike Rubin ------- Message 17 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 20:43:45-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-G.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 13:51:05-PDT Date: 10 May 1984 16:36:40-EDT From: David.Anderson at CMU-CS-G Subject: WYSIWYG? ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:46-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I'm rather perturbed by the fact that with both MacPaint and MacWrite, what you see is often NOT what you get. Some examples: MacPaint: Every 10th raster line is deleted when an image is printed (always!). The reason for doing this is fairly straightforward -- the printer prints only 72 dpi vertically, but 80 dpi horizontally, while the screen is 80 dpi in both directions. In order to preserve the aspect ratio and the size of the displayed image, every 10th raster line is just left out when printing. Unfortunately, this is rather noticable: text gets scrunched; shaded areas become streaked. If you don't believe me, simply print the current window while in MacPaint and see what happens to the parallel lines in the window's title bar. Possible fix: add an option that prints images 72 dpi horizontally and vertically. This would make the printed version larger than the displayed version, but at least they would have the same appearance. MacWrite: The problem is that right justified text often isn't. Some characters seem to have too much padding on the right side ("y", "r"), so that if a line ends with one of these characters, it isn't quite flush. Much worse are "l"'s: a line ending with "illegal" or "all wall" will really stick out past the right margin (when printed, not when displayed). Another way get text to stick way out into the right margin is to end a line with something in italics (or even better, bold italics). The slant will slant right into tomorrow. When I went to the end of the line and tried to add some extra spaces so that the text would get shoved left a bit it moved FARTHER TO THE RIGHT! I encountered these problems when working with a very narrow document (2 3/8 inches) in 9 point Geneva. I don't know if they occur in other fonts or sizes, but I rather expect that some of them do. Message 18 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 21:01:48-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 03:09:19-PDT Date: Thursday, 10 May 1984 06:00:35 EDT From: Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.arpa To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa Subject: Re: Toolbox equates for peons Message-ID: <1984.5.10.8.15.4.Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.arpa> ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:37-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Warning: long flame (~==========) It's been interesting watching the discussion on the net. From what I can see, the people posting on this net fall into three groups: (a) Certified/registered developers who can afford to buy Lisas and expensive documentation, and who generally defend every move that Apple makes, (b) Hackers, students, etc. (like myself) who see the potential in the machine and will occasionally acknowledge the warts, but do not have money to spend on Lisas to go with our Macs, and (c) People who have used computers, but have not used computers that have mice and windows (I suspect that Jerry Pournelle fell into this group until his Lilith machine arrived). As someone else noted earlier, one problem with the Macintosh is that it tends to overload the mouse. The computer that I work on (a Perq running Accent) tends to use the mouse only where it actually provides an advantage. The editor, although non-programmable, has the usual set of Emacs-like commands, given from the keyboard. In addition you can use the mouse to move anywhere in the file quickly and to select blocks of text that will be copied or deleted. If you absolutely hate mice, there are alternate keyboard commands that accomplish the same effect (more slowly). I tend to use the keyboard when entering new text and a combination of keyboard and mouse commands when editing an existing file. People in group (c), though, are likely to take a look at the Macintosh and conclude that its faults are characteristic of all systems with mice and bit-mapped displays. Without a standard of comparison, they are not likely to see the machine's potential (software tends towards the lowest common denominator and the Mac hardware provides a fairly high "standard" with the exception of memory size). Of course, the machine's potential is not likely to be realized unless the people in group (b) can easily write software for it. Randy Frank is just plain wrong when he says that the best way to get software for the machine is to limit support to a few "proven developers." The history of the Apple II family should prove otherwise. (Oh, by the way, wasn't the Apple II designed in a garage and Visicalc written by a couple of college students? How many Apple IIs were sold because of Visicalc? Why is the Apple II still selling after all this time? No, it couldn't possibly be the thousands of peons who have written software for it. . . Why is the TI 99/4 dead? Could it possibly have something to do with TI's attempts to prevent hobbyists and hackers from getting inside the machine, especially during the first part of its life?) Way to go, Jerry. I may disagree quite violently with you on many points, but you are absolutely right in this case. Message 19 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 21:18:30-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-GANDALF.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 10:10:30-PDT Date: 10 May 1984 13:08:10-EDT From: Peter.Su at CMU-CS-GANDALF Subject: toolbox ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:42-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I have to agree with Jerry, Apple just is not doing a good job with Mac. I mean they've released a computer with better hardware, a better OS, a better user interface, the same BASIC, better graphics, better drives (though only one), and more promised software than IBM ever had in its early stages...man, they really screwed this up huh? - Pete Message 20 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 21:33:32-CDT Return-Path: Received: from WASHINGTON.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Thu 10 May 84 13:01:00-PDT Date: Thu 10 May 84 13:00:34-PDT From: Bjorn Lindskog Subject: MAC in Europe To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Thu 10 May 84 17:16:44-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Is the MAC dependent on the mains frequency in any way? I want to bring mine over to Europe where 50 Hz is what comes out of the plug. I guess that the real-time clock would be something you often control by the mains. I'm not worried about the video frame rate, since switchable terminals are always run at 60 Hz rate anyway in order to minimze the flicker, and that works fine. I suppose that the voltage will be the problem, since the supply is probably not switchable to 220 V. (At least it wasn't on Apple II) -- Bjorn ------- Message 21 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 12:27:04-CDT Return-Path: Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 00:01:19-PDT Date: Thu 10 May 84 23:25:31-PDT From: Chad Leland Mitchell Subject: price To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 09:29:29-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; 1-The categorization of people reading the BBoard is a real overgeneralizaton. For example, I am a certified developer. I am also a graduate student and cannot afford a Lisa. I have some things I am putting together with one other person. Since they would need to be coded in assembly anyway (the Mac is the slowest machine they could possibly run on) we will be using the assembler when it arrives. Meanwhile we are doing the product design. I have no other direct connection with Apple. I have friends who work there and at HP, IBM, etc. Some of my school research is paid for by IBM. And I have worked for Bell Labs. Almost three years ago I specified the personal computer which I would be willing to buy and which would be interesting for me to program. At the time there was nothing anywhere near the price range. The Lisa was impressive and if it had been cheaper or earlier would have been a hit. I know several people who bought IBM PC-XTs prior to January 24th who wish they had waited for the $5500 Lisa 2/10 (much cheaper than about $7000 for a "somewhat similarly equiped" PC XT). The Macintosh is very close in all respects including price to the dream machine that I specified. It is powerful enough to do interesting work and to make an attempt at enogh user friendliness to call it an appliance. I am looking forward to being able to program on top of an existing user interface which is not upward compatible with punched cards. I find it hard to believe that anyone could fall for the statement that if IBM had come out with this machine we would all be complaining. If IBM had come out with this machine, Apple would have lost totally. We would all be shocked at something so innovative (IBM does innovative research, but it is a real surprise when they come out with innovative products since they have a stated policy of letting other companies do their market research for them). Apple isn't perfect (and I admit that there may be people on this BBoard that seem to doubt it). The Mac has some flaws. SOME of the software is coming late. On the other hand, the software is no later than it has been for everything else I have ever dealt with, it is far more powerful and complex software than has been on personal computers before, and Second Quarter does not mean April; it means before June 30. I know of no other machine in the price range that comes close in almost any measure I care about. It is not a Dorado, nor a Lilth, but then it does not cost $100,000 nor even $10,000. Thus, you see, I am not a rich Lisa buyer, but I like the Mac a lot. It brings computing to my parents (who bought one), my brother (who bought one), my wife (who tells me we need two). None of them has ever written a program. All of them had access to IBM PCs and used them for word processing and accounting. None of them liked using the PC and they still had negative feelings toward computers in general. They each spent a few hours using a Macintosh and decided that they wanted one. They now feel confortable about computers. Computers are acceptable topics of conversation. My wife is planning to computerize her files, her recipes, our library, etc. She could have done that before on other machines, but she never felt the desire to and never really felt comfortable with a computer before, despite my prompting for several years. Macintosh does something which may seem terrible to some. It makes computing fun. I admit that to some it may have been fun before Macintosh (myself included), but then some people thought it was lots of fun to enter in long sequences of machine code using front panel switches. 2-I have been asked by a friend (Robert Gardner) to forward this to the BBoard: I have been trying to understand why some people are claiming the Macintosh is overpriced. A look through the What's New column of the most recent BYTE shows, for instance, the Zenith Z-100 PC compatible with 128K bytes RAM, 2 serial ports, graphics, and one DS/DD drive lists at $2800; the new PC portable (if you can call 30 pounds portable) with 256K RAM and 1 DS/DD drive (but minus everything else IBM PC's are famous for coming without) lists at $2800 also. These machines come only with system software, don't include a mouse or graphics in ROM, windowing, etc., and are bogged down by a barely adequate CPU. A look through the mail-order discount houses also shows the Mac is at least competitively priced. So, I wonder, the Mac is overpriced compared to what? It's more expensive than the Kaypro or the myriad of other 8-bit machines, but certainly a 16/32 bit machine can't compare in price with an 8-bit machine (unless we're comparing price/performance). I think the answer is that the Mac is overpriced compared to expectations, and perhaps Apple is guilty of raising false expectations (I guess Scully is to blame for shattering those expectations). Finally, while we all would certainly like to see the Mac cheaper (and everything else we purchase, too!), we need to remember that this country is built on the profit motive. According to Adam Smith, when demand exceeds supply prices remain high. Currently, Apple is able to sell more Macintoshes than it can build, so the price is justifyably high. Rumor has it that it costs Apple around $600 to build a Mac (I assume this includes parts and labor only), so we can surely expect the price to fall once their production facilities are able to keep up with demand. In the meantime, I don't think we can begrudge Apple their well-deserved profits. ------- Message 22 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 13:01:15-CDT Return-Path: Received: from dca-eur by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 01:13:01-PDT Date: 11 May 1984 08:07 GMT From: byard @ dca-eur To: BJORN @ WASHINGTON CC: info-mac @ sumex ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 09:29:33-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Re: MAC in Europe Date: 11 May 1984 07:51:50 Z Text: 50 Hz is no problem. We have used the American version of Mac with a small transformer. The transformers are readily available over here. A 220/110 switch would indeed complement the Mac travel bag. Better yet, automatic voltage sensing and operation on various power standards would make Mac more "international" and less vulnerable to accidental smoke tests. Larry Byard @ DCA-EUR Stuttgart Message 23 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 13:29:10-CDT Return-Path: Received: from WASHINGTON.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 02:01:42-PDT Date: Fri 11 May 84 02:01:17-PDT From: Richard Furuta Subject: How well is the Mac selling? To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA cc: Furuta@WASHINGTON.ARPA ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 09:29:36-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; TV news this evening reports that Apple has sold 70,000 MacIntoshes since their introduction. The report is that this makes it the fastest selling Personal Computer in history. Does anyone have any details on this---how much of this is Consortium business, how long are waits these days for Consortium and private business deliveries, at what kind of rate is Apple now manufacturing them, etc. Thanks for any information. --Rick ------- Message 24 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 13:53:48-CDT Return-Path: <@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA:US.ALAN@CU20B> Received: from COLUMBIA-20.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 06:40:07-PDT Received: from CU20B by CUCS20 with DECnet; 11 May 84 09:39:39 EDT Date: Fri 11 May 84 09:38:55-EDT From: Alan Crosswell Subject: Re: MAC in Europe To: BJORN%WASHINGTON@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA cc: info-mac%SUMEX-AIM@COLUMBIA-20.ARPA In-Reply-To: Message from "Bjorn Lindskog " of Thu 10 May 84 22:33:16-EDT ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 09:29:40-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; We asked Apple about that since many of our users asked the same question at a Mac demo we put on here last month. Apple told us (and it came out in print in the next Consortium newsletter that all that is needed is a good quality voltage converter since 50 Hz is still within the Mac's operating range. They don't use the line frequency for any kind of clock. Alan Crosswell Columbia University Computer Center ------- Message 25 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 21:01:05-CDT Return-Path: Received: from Xerox.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 17:49:15-PDT Received: from Chardonnay.ms by ArpaGateway.ms ; 11 MAY 84 17:48:48 PDT Date: Fri, 11 May 84 17:49 PDT From: Cagan.PA@XEROX.ARPA Subject: Re: Accurate Info for your column In-reply-to: "ERIK@SRI-AI.ARPA's message of Thu, 3 May 84 18:52:41 PDT" To: ERIK@SRI-AI.ARPA cc: Pourne@MIT-MC.ARPA, Info-Mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 18:04:55-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I'm sending this message to the above distribution because I think that some one in this group will be able to answer my question. I will be purchasing a MacIntosh(with an Apple 1200 modem) in the near future. I would like to know if there is, or will be (in the near future), any way that an individual, with out a lot of money or hardware , can use the MacIntosh to access the ARPA network or UUCP? Ideally, one would be able to do this without using the resources of their employer who may be part of the network. I feel that the potential that Mac has for this application is one of it's great strengths. I am a physical scientist, not a CS expert. So, I would appreciate answers/solutions to my question that are understandable to one without intimate knowledge of Mac's( or any computer's) inner workings. I would also encourage individuals at Apple to respond. Of course, a ready made software package (reasonably priced) would be the most palatable solution for me. Thanks for your help. Myron Cagan Xerox PARC Message 26 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 21:17:48-CDT Return-Path: Received: from BBNF.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 10:20:48-PDT Date: Fri, 11 May 1984 13:21 EDT Message-ID: From: "William D. Cattey" To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA cc: WCATTEY@BBNF.ARPA Phase-Of-The-Moon: FQ+4D.0H.57M.22S. ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 18:04:50-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Subject: Macwrite pains I am writing this note in the hopes that some problems I encountered using Macwrite can either be fixed in the next release. I have a document that is big enough to take 100 percent of the Macwrite buffer space. I could deal with the following annoying little problems by working around them : There had to be *lots* of free space on my diskette before the save imagee for the printer would fit. This meant a diskette with Write, System, my document, and nothing else. The whole document image does not necessarily have to be created in one huge file! I had to save my file and bring in a fresh copy of Macwrite every time I got the message "Almost out of memory cannot undo this operation." while inserting text. Insert stops working when it cannot undo typing. I expected tht later inserts would succeed after acnowledging that they could not be able to be undone, or that deleting characters from the buffer would help. This error also seemed to affect the other commands in random ways. Bill Coderre is right about headers and footers being buggy. They have many problems: They are awful to use. Their user interface should be re-thought. I suggest that headers and footers have commands to make them appear in the document, and seperate commands to grab hold of them for editing. In my large document, most of my fiddling time was spent waiting for Macwrite to re-paginate my document between hides and shows of my headers and footers. (I hope to hide and show less often when other bugs are fixed. see below) Once the page number icon dissapeared from the footer command completely. I have not been able to re-produce this problem. I got around it by hiding the footer, saving the file, starting a new Macwrite and re-creating the footer. The following happened with a particular very large document: After certain screen refresh opertions, such as using the scroll boxes, or across a show/hide rulers command pair. The page numbers I asked for in my footer would no longer appear on the screen image. MacWrite had re-positioned the icon within the footer, and decided that even though the page number was still in a visible region of the footer, that the text should not appear. I got around this by I had to hide and re-show my footer, and move the page number icon to the second line of the footer from the first line of the footer (where Macwrite decided it belonged). The first time I printed out my document, the header text, consisting of the date did not appear on the printed page. Only blank lines. I made a few revisions to the text (deleting a couple of lines) and then neither the header nor the footer text appeared. I got blank lines where dates and page numbers should be. I suspected that asking for a big document with headers and footers was too much, so I got rid of the header. I tried reading the document back in to a virginal Macwrite. I tried several combinations of header text, lack of header text, etc. I could get the page numbers to appear in the screen image but never on the printed one! After several hours of fiddling, I went back to a previously saved copy of the file that predated the problem with insertion, forgot about trying to get a header at all, (since it did not want to print), and settled for page numbers that printed. I also deleted MacPaint from the disk, because this time, although the document was 10 lines shorter, Write complained of insufficient space on the disk for the printed output. Booting a new MacWrite did not help at all, althought I expected that it would. I suspect two possible causes: 1) Perhaps header information stored in the document had gotten corrupted, and only a previous version of the document with correct footer information would solve the problem. I would have expected header and footer information to be completely replacable with new information from MacWrite rather than getting corrupted once and forever. 2) If header and footer output is kept in seperate disk files (as I *think* I saw mentioned here) perhaps the write failed due to lack of space, but was not complained about. If there were 3 file outputs, perhaps error checking is missing on one or two of them. This is the first problem I have ever encountered in the Macintosh that I could not quickly find a work around for. My shining image of the Macintosh got tarnished. Interestingly, I did eventually find work arounds for the problems, and it has taken me much longer to find this sort of frustrating problem than with any other machine I have used before. This speaks well of the overall useability and quality of the system (The IBM PC was so frustrating to me that I felt like throwing it out the window in the first 5 minutes of use!) Perhaps I will elaborate on this topic in a subsequent submission to info-mac. I hope this stuff is dealt with in the next release. When will *I* be able to get the next release at my friendly Cambridge Massachusetts Computer Store? Maybe I should become a Macintosh Developer??? William D. Cattey wcattey@bbnf Message 27 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 21:33:40-CDT Return-Path: Received: from aerospace.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 10:51:58-PDT Date: Fri, 11 May 84 10:47:37 PDT From: Kenneth Clark To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM Subject: flame about color Macs... ReSent-date: Fri 11 May 84 18:04:53-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I think that many of the people that wish for a color Mac are perhaps not seeing things in perspective. The Mac is part of a *system* concept, and is designed to integrate well with the other components of that system. You could not just add a color tube and hardware to Mac and have that be the end of it. Color tubes draw more power, add a larger power supply. Bit planes require more memory, and probably would require more horsepower from the CPU to crunch that extra memory. Maybe all this extra hardware/power would now require a fan, etc. Also, I think one of Mac's great features is the ability to print out just exactly what you see on the screen. So would we not need color printers also? Maybe even a color laser printer for networking? My point is that these enhancements are more appropriate to a system that is in general of a higher class than Mac. Such an enhanced system could easily end up two or three times as expensive as the Mac system. Let's face it, the Mac is the Volkswagen of the computer industry, which is a valid and necessary niche for a manufacturer to fill. But putting a Rolls Royce engine in a Volkswagen does not give you a cheap Rolls Royce, it gives you a very expensive Volkswagen... Message 28 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 11:15:25-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-SPICE.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Fri 11 May 84 18:24:10-PDT Date: Friday, 11 May 1984 21:17:43 EDT From: Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.arpa To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa Subject: Clarification Message-ID: <1984.5.12.1.8.1.Thomas.Newton@cmu-cs-spice.arpa> ReSent-date: Sat 12 May 84 08:33:57-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Since my message was somewhat ambiguous: I didn't mean to say that I agree with Jerry that the Mac is a bad machine. I do think he has a valid point that availability of applications software is going to make or break the Mac, and that, as he puts it: "TI told hobbyistz and hackers to drop dead, twice. Long live the 99/4A" Message 29 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 11:38:06-CDT Return-Path: Received: from csnet-relay by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 02:38:40-PDT Received: From toronto.csnet by csnet-relay; 12 May 84 5:09 EDT Date: 12 May 84 2:21:20-EDT (Sat) From: Peterr%toronto.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa To: info-mac@sumex-aim.arpa Subject: The number of Macs sold ReSent-date: Sat 12 May 84 08:33:58-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; An item in the Toronto Globe and Mail for Friday May 11 (pg. B14) confirms the 70,000 Macs-in-100-days figure (calling it 20,000 more than expected) and compares it to the two-and-a-half years it took to sell 50,000 Apple II's and the seven-and-a-half months to sell the first 50,000 IBM PC's. Other items of interest: - Apple is "talking to" 250 software developers, 25 in Canada, and this will grow to 350 and 35, respectively, by the end of the year. - A "flurry" of software announcments is expected in June. - The Mac has "also stimulated an unprecedented demand for Lisa". - Xerox Canada will carry the Mac and Lisa in its retail stores. p. rowley, U. Toronto Message 30 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 11:55:08-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-CS-G.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 06:26:20-PDT Date: 12 May 1984 09:20:46-EDT From: David.Anderson at CMU-CS-G Subject: Re: How well is the Mac selling? ReSent-date: Sat 12 May 84 08:34:01-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; CMU has received about 500 Macs to date. If that is average among the 24 Consortium schools, which I doubt, that makes 12,000 sales at $1000. I'd be more inclined to put the figure at 5,000-6,000, but I don't know. Message 31 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 15:48:19-CDT Return-Path: Received: from udel-ee by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 09:04:46-PDT Date: Sat, 12 May 84 12:05:18 EDT From: Dave Farber To: info-mac%sumex-aim.csnet@udel-ee.arpa Subject: from Compuserve ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:04:37-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; 10 REM Color Demonstration Program 20 REM 30 REM Copyright (c) 1984 by Wayne R. Loofbourrow 40 REM 50 REM Permission is granted for personal, non-commercial 60 REM reproduction of this program, provided that this 70 REM notice and all copyright notices are included in any copy. 80 REM 90 DEFINT A-Z 100 DIM CODE(100) 110 DIM PIC(257), ARRAY(256*3-1) 120 CLS : PRINT : PRINT : PRINT : PRINT : GOSUB 430 130 REM Load in Machine Language code. 140 I=0 150 READ W : IF W = -1 THEN 180 160 CODE(I)=W : I=I+1 : GOTO 150 170 REM Create pictures. 180 CLS : PRINT " Dk. Red" : PRINT : PRINT : PRINT " Brown" 190 GOSUB 430 200 I=0 : GOSUB 450 210 CLS : PRINT : PRINT "Lt. Green" : PRINT : PRINT " Brown" 220 GOSUB 430 230 GOSUB 450 240 CLS : PRINT : PRINT : PRINT " Dk. Blue" : PRINT 250 GOSUB 430 260 GOSUB 450 270 CLS : PRINT "Color Demonstration" 280 PRINT "Copyright ";CHR$(169);"1984 by Wayne R. Loofbourrow" 290 PRINT : PRINT "Instructions:" 300 PRINT TAB(5); "(1) Make sure brightness isn't too high." 310 PRINT TAB(5); "(2) Make sure room lights are on." 320 PRINT TAB(5); "(3) Start Program." 330 PRINT TAB(5); "(4) Stare at it a while at eye level," 340 PRINT TAB(8); "adjusting brightness for best effect." 350 PRINT : PRINT "Press any key to begin." 360 PRINT "Press mouse button while mouse is in this window to exit." 370 IF MOUSE(0)<>0 THEN END 380 IF INKEY$="" THEN 370 390 CLS : DISPLAY#=VARPTR(CODE(0)) 400 CALL DISPLAY#(VARPTR(ARRAY(0))) 410 IF MOUSE(0)=0 THEN 400 420 CLS : END 430 PRINT : PRINT "Initializing... Please Wait..." 440 RETURN 450 GET (0,0)-(63,63), PIC 460 FOR J=2 TO 257 : ARRAY(I)=PIC(J) : I=I+1 : NEXT J 470 RETURN 480 DATA &H206F, &H0004, &H6114, &H611E 490 DATA &H6110, &H610E, &H610C, &H612E 500 DATA &H6108, &H612A, &H6104, &H6126 510 DATA &H4E75, &H3038, &H016C, &HB078 520 DATA &H016C, &H67FA, &H4E75, &H227C 530 DATA &H0001, &HBF10, &H70FF, &H723F 540 DATA &H22C0, &H2280, &HD2FC, &H003C 550 DATA &H51C9, &HFFF6, &H4E75, &H227C 560 DATA &H0001, &HBF10, &H723F, &H22D8 570 DATA &H2298, &HD2FC, &H003C, &H51C9 580 DATA &HFFF6, &H4E75 590 DATA -1 Message 32 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 16:22:47-CDT Return-Path: Received: from udel-ee by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 09:04:55-PDT Date: Sat, 12 May 84 12:06:20 EDT From: Dave Farber To: info-mac%sumex-aim.csnet@udel-ee.arpa Subject: previous program -- color.bas ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:04:41-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; The author claims under certain conditions you will see color on the mac when you run this. (at least some will) Message 33 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 16:39:27-CDT Return-Path: <@MIT-MC:G.ZEEP@MIT-EECS> Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 11:25:01-PDT Date: Sat 12 May 84 14:25:04-EDT From: Wang Zeep Subject: Power To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:04:46-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; The first edition of MacWorld mentioned that Americans got 120 V supplies, but that the European Macs would have 120/240 switching power supplies, so that you only had to change the cord to change countries. Perhaps, one can special order a Euro-MAc . Wang "Wanna' buy a used PC?" Zeep ------- Message 34 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 17:10:05-CDT Return-Path: Received: from NYU-ACF1.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 11:32:38-PDT Date: 12 May 84 14:32 EDT From: Richard Reich To: INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA, Furuta@WASHINGTON.ARPA Subject: RE: How well is the Mac selling? Message-ID: <1334FDFC2.006C004F.1984@ACF1.NYU-ACF1.ARPA> In-Reply-To: <8405111821.AA27448@NYU.ARPA> ; Message of 11-MAY-1984 14:30 from Richard Furuta ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:04:52-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; The first place I saw the 70,000 sales figure was current Fortune. I don't know what it means exactly, but 47th Street Photo in NYC now has Macs IN STOCK at $2300 and they have MILLIONS of Apple modems also, which I have seen nowhere else in NYC as yet. -r ------- Message 35 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 18:16:13-CDT Return-Path: Received: from MIT-MC by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 03:39:32-PDT Date: 14 May 1984 06:38-EDT From: Jerry E. Pournelle Subject: Toolbox equates for peons To: INFO-MAC @ SUMEX-AIM, STERNLIGHT @ USC-ECL, REICH @ NYU-ACF1 In-reply-to: Msg of 9 May 1984 04:27-EDT from Jerry E. Pournelle ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:07-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; [Last message on this 'subject'..... Ed.] Let us set the record straight. I know of three cases of applications for "Developer Status." All were refused. I probably would have turned down one of them myself. The other two seem highly qualified, and if I were hoping to get software out for my system I'd have thought them owrth encouraging. I am pleased to hear from STERNLIGHT that there are apparent exceptions to what I was persuaded was the rule. One reason I ask questions on the net, or even make statements, is to find things out; unlike Dvorak, who recently bragged in his San Francisco Chronical column that "a columnist doesn't have to check his facts" I tend to do some homework before I publish. My interpretation of the facts remains my own business. I don't apologize for being wrong; why should I? On this net, one says what one thinks is true; one will get corrections soon enough. Isn't taht its purpose? Without information sources, how the devil will I know. On the other hand, it remains a fact that Apple did sufficient exhoration of hobbyists and hackers to make it a reasonable expectation from all three I know of who applied that they'd be accepted. There was also considerable hoop-lah about how much software would be developed, adn when; it was, after all, a major selling point. My suspicion is that Apple originally meant to grant "Developer" status to a far larger number of people, then found sales much better than expected. They didn't need so many discounted machines sold to get them far out on the learning curve for manufacture, so they could charge full price for more of them than they'd thought. They chose to do that. This is not an unreasonable decision. Most corporations probably would make the same decision. Whether it was a WISE decision is another matter. I repeat: certainly Apple would lose little by granting developer status to every Ph.D. gainfully employed in the computer business who applies. They would lose little by granting Developer status to any hacker with a good track record, even if the track record consisted of work on programs in other people's shops rather than on their own. Sure: they'd lose, say, 1000 full price sales, at most. That's a million dollars. No small sum. But if within that thousand there was one VisiCalc... True: the VisiCalc people had no special developer status. no one had. But the Apple II was a prety open machine, much easier to understand thd interface to. Is the Macintosh that simple? Apparently not, else there would already be some of that promised flood. I don't know where sternlight gets the notion that I dislike Apple. I don't much care what company competes with IBM so long as somebody does it successfully. I'm a little weary of the breathless hype, and VERY weary of the Apple-polished corporate image of the Good Guys who are somehow differently motivated, but I can make that statement about other companies I know of. If the Mac had 500K of memory and a second drive, then it would be worth $2500 and more; alternatively, it's worth a fair bit less in its present state. That, of course, is merely an opinion, based on considerable experience with a number of machines (including a Mac). Now: if Sternlight's angry little tirade is answered, then I too am willing to pass on to another subject. I alrady was; that's why I "changed the subject" after he pointed out that I was mistaken in one point of information. I hadn't know that I was supposed to acknowledge that I'd lost some kind of debating point; however, I'm perfectly willing to make that acknowledgement if it makes him feel better. Last point: does anyone know WHY it is taking so long to write useful applications programs for the Mac? One story we heard: Apple intended to do it all in house. They had not intended even Microsoft basic. Then, very late last year, they discovered that they were not going to be producing any useful software (other than the ability to produce 9 page illuminated manuscripts) before the Mac was to be releeased. There was panic calls, including to Microsoft; which is why the Microsoft Basic implementation is such a kludge (14 K workspace!). Anyone know whether or not that's true? Next rumour: AT&T will sell Macs with 256K chips. I keep hearing that. It makes little sense to me. I have no confirmations, only multiple sources. Anyone know? The main question remains: if it's so easy to interface with the Mac and write software for it, why has none appeared? Is it being held for COMDEX; or is it harder to write than was supposed? Message 36 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 18:40:11-CDT Return-Path: Received: from ut-ngp.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 07:52:47-PDT Posted-Date: Mon, 14 May 84 09:45:30 CDT Message-Id: <8405141453.AA25534@ut-ngp.ARPA> Received: by ut-ngp.ARPA (4.22/4.22) id AA25534; Mon, 14 May 84 09:53:52 cdt Date: Mon, 14 May 84 09:45:30 CDT From: Andrew W. Donoho To: info-mac@sumex-aim.ARPA Subject: Protocol for SendOne/GetFile??? ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:09-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Does anyone in netland know the protocol for the SendOne/GetFile transfer programs that Apple includes in its software supplement to the Mac? We haven't been able to find any documentation on this in Inside Macintosh. Any information would be greatly appreciated. If I receive some useful information I will repost it to the net. Thanks in Advance Andrew W. Donoho awd@ut-ngp Message 37 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 18:55:45-CDT Return-Path: Received: from CMU-RI-ROVER.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 10:11:26-PDT Date: 14 May 1984 13:13:00-EDT From: Kevin.Dowling at CMU-RI-ROVER Subject: Printer ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:11-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; The May issue of BYTE talks about the new addition to the Apple line: The Apple IIc. In addition, on page 282, they mention a new printer called The Scribe. The Scribe is a plain-paper thermal transfer printer with color capabilities (no price announced but expected to be in the $300 range) The Scribe, it is said, will print on virtually any paper surface and projection transparencies. It is designed as a printer for the entire product line including Mac's and Lisa's. The BYTE article goes on to say that output appeared to exceed the Imagewriter in quality. It operates at 80cps (draft mode) or 50cps (letter mode) Dot resolution is 160 horizontal x 144 vertical per inch or 23040 dots/sq in. Color printing is done by a color ribbon with a spectrum of colors arranged in bands on the ribbon. About $5 for a 80,000 character black ribbon and about $8 for color. Any estimates on how much text is 80,000 chars? The printhead is a proprietary device that consists of 24 resistance elements that are arranged in a vertical column. While printing, the head is pressed against a polyester ribbon with carbon filled paraffin ink on it. The resistance elements are pulsed briefly, heating them and melt the ink to deposit it on the paper. The temperature range of the resistance element goes from 300 degrees F to 95 degrees F in several microseconds. nivek ARPANET: nivek@cmu-ri-rover USmail : Kevin Dowling Robotics Institute Pgh, PA 15213 Bell : (412) 578-8830 Message 38 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 19:26:46-CDT Return-Path: Received: from SU-SIERRA.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 10:13:42-PDT Date: Mon 14 May 84 10:09:50-PDT From: Chad Leland Mitchell Subject: price To: info-mac@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:14-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; Individually, a few of Jerry's points make some sense, but taken together I am not sure. For example: -Apple may be going for market share. I am sure that they are based on advertizing strategies, but we will not really know as long as they can sell every Mac they can make at the current price. If they drop the price as production catches up to sales THEN we will know they are going for market share. Until then we do not know. -To be useful by Jerry's definition, a Mac needs a second drive and a printer which does not bring the price to $4000. First he complained that the second drive was not available. Is he now complaining that it is available? -Jerry's main concern about software is that there is not enough software right now. I cannot understand how changing the certified developer program would help with that. If Apple approved everyone who applied from here on they would still contribute little software until soemtime next year. -If I see a BYTE article which says that there are only 7 or 9 (or however many there are right now) software packages currently available for the Mac, I hope it also reads "(as of May 7)" or something like that. The "Update" on the Macintosh and Lisa 2 in the current BYTE seems to have been written right after the January 24th meeting. With such a lag time, any claim to little software is likely to be very out of date. -I am not too worried that no software will arrive. I might be if it were all still in design or development phases, but much of it is in Beta test and very little that makes it to beta test does not really ship. -We all want the software to be well tested and really custimized to take advantage of the Mac. We complain about the MS-Basic which seems to be a quick port. We also want all of that software right now. I would rather wait till June for well tested software than get something now that works as well as some of the early software on some other machines. The ONLY editor that I am aware of for the IBM-PC when it was announced was EDLIN which as you might guess is a line editor. I do have a possible correction to make. Rumors still seem to indicate that in the early days of the Certified Developer program there was a 90% acceptance rate. When they reached about 1000 certified developers (far more than anticipated) they seem to have decided to change that acceptance rate significantly (this is just a rumor to me, but others seem to support this). Perhaps when their staff figures out how to support the volume of developers already accepted they will change the acceptance rate again. Thus I stand corrected. Back when they told me that anyone with the right qualifications would be accepted that was true, but it may no longer be true. Chad ------- Message 39 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 19:57:47-CDT Return-Path: Received: from udel-ee by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 10:27:59-PDT Date: Mon, 14 May 84 13:27:29 EDT From: Dave Farber To: info-mac%sumex-aim.csnet@udel-ee.arpa Subject: Query on rs232/422 mac connectors ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:05:16-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; We are getting about 2.5 volts out of our mac on pin 7. Is that normal? I believe the specs for rs232 say > 3 volts Message 40 -- ************************ Return-Path: Received: from SUMEX-AIM.ARPA by UTEXAS-20.ARPA with TCP; Mon 14 May 84 20:51:51-CDT Return-Path: Received: from NYU-ACF1.ARPA by SUMEX-AIM.ARPA with TCP; Sat 12 May 84 11:42:49-PDT Date: 12 May 84 14:42 EDT From: Richard Reich To: WCATTEY@BBNF.ARPA Cc: INFO-MAC@SUMEX-AIM.ARPA Message-ID: <13350C49C.0191005D.1984@ACF1.NYU-ACF1.ARPA> In-Reply-To: ; Message of 11-MAY-1984 21:14 from "William D. Cattey" ReSent-date: Mon 14 May 84 13:04:54-PDT ReSent-From: Ed Pattermann ReSent-To: info-mac: ; I got the new stuff (Finder, MacWrite, DiskCopy) from my store on a completely informal ("I can't really tell you where I got it...") basis. All seems well EXCEPT MacForth craps out at initiation using the new system folder. BASIC seems to work ok, and I haven't checked Multiplan yet. -r ps... The new "About the Finder" is pretty cute. ------- -------