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From: karl@osu-dbs.UUCP (Karl Kleinpaste)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: A Question for Rich Rosen
Message-ID: <590@osu-dbs.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 4-May-84 20:34:10 EDT
Article-I.D.: osu-dbs.590
Posted: Fri May  4 20:34:10 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 5-May-84 02:11:21 EDT
Organization: Ohio State U., CIS Dept., Columbus
Lines: 57

In the interest of avoiding a quoted quote of a quote, I think the
series of events is something like:
    (a) Rich Rosen et al want evidence for the existence of God,
    (b) Someone (in frustration, I guess) asks what sort of evidence
	would be acceptable, and so
    (c) Steven Maurer suggests that a divinely-created license
	plate would be in order, complete with proper "fanfare."
(Have I misrepresented anyone?  If so, yell once, and I'll either
retract or correct...)

Now I feel I have to quote Steven in order to provide proper context:
    Some Christians will no doubt tell me that this is improbable evidence
    since either 1]..., or 2] "God doesn't work that way".
    ...  As far as 2] is concerned, I
    disagree..  The entire Bible is made up of stories where NON-BELIEVERS
    are accosted by angels: "Pssst!  Hey bub!  Wanna believe in a god?",
    and converted to the faith.   (Often these people were mass murders,
    and one convert had even spent his life trying to stamp out
    Christianity, before some angel came down and said cut it out).  Why
    should I be left out of the fun??

OK, well, my answer is going to be "[2] God doesn't work that way."
Now let me try to explain it.

God doesn't work that way because that method expects God to serve man.
That, as I have pointed out to a couple of others in the mail, is not the
correct order of things.  God is God, and as such he is supposed to be
served.  By saying, "Give me a license plate or I won't believe in you,"
you seem to be giving God an order.  He is not prone to do what humans
order him to do.  He is much more prone to do what humans *ask* of him
in humility, when they coincide with his will.  The reason that Christians
view prayer as a powerful tool is that Christians are trying to learn
God's will, and hence their prayers will be more likely to coincide with
one of the many possible events which would reflect God's will.

This question (asking for a license plate) is much like the complaint,
"Why doesn't God get rid of the evil in the world?  *Then* I'd believe
in him."  There are many things that God wants to do for people, but
people are supposed to be serving their God.  When you say, "then I'll
believe," you are requiring God to do you some service first.  That's
just plain not right; it's backward.  You have attempted to place the
responsibility for your belief on God's shoulders.  Sorry, that's your
personal, private responsibility.  God has already given evidence for
his existence; that's what the Bible really becomes.  Why would you be-
lieve new evidence presented to you now?

This reminds me of a pair of articles recently.  David Norris described
a miracle to which he was a witness: A friend afflicted with cancer was
abruptly found to be completely healthy (no cancer).  Someone else wrote
that this was not a miracle, but that it was an as-yet-unexplainable
medical fact.  Well, to Christians, that was a prime example of a miracle
which God worked; non-believers rationalize it away into "unexplained" and
reject the evidence.  It seems clear to me that this attitude won't be
satisfied with any evidence of any kind.
-- 
"Gee, I haven't been really flamed in months..."
Karl Kleinpaste @ Bell Labs, Columbus	614/860-5107	{cbosgd,ihnp4}!cbrma!kk