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From: lab@qubix.UUCP (Q-Bick)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Annotated Humanist (Bottom of the 3rd Inning)
Message-ID: <1095@qubix.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 11-May-84 21:31:44 EDT
Article-I.D.: qubix.1095
Posted: Fri May 11 21:31:44 1984
Date-Received: Sun, 13-May-84 07:23:49 EDT
Organization: Qubix Graphic Systems, Saratoga, CA
Lines: 124

[Hey, Steven! Will ya let me outa this straitjacket?!]

Apparently somebody ate some news somewhere - qubix got virtually no
news feed for about 3 days. So I will proceed in the semi-dark.

A brief aside before entering the main fray: another interesting book
on Science & Religion is "Evolution and Christian Faith" by Bolton
Davidheiser (Ph.D., Johns Hopkins). Davidheiser looks at how evolutionary
thought has been shaped by various religious and philosophical beliefs.
About 300 pages; not heavy, but not fast-paced.

[A final check on the refrigeration units. OK, we're ready...]

Yosi Hoshen: "We should respect, or at least tolerate, other people's
	personal moral and/or religious beliefs."

Full religious tolerance is impossible. And you expect me to stand idly
by while people are being offered up as burnt offerings? Our laws state
a certain moral/religious code, necessarily at the expense of others.

Rich Rosen: "God hasn't been accused of denying anyone any rights.
	Certain views on what god has said have decided a priori (again
	without reasonable reason) that god's word (as written by human
	beings in a book) would deny us those rights. Yes, many have
	said 'if god is as described in xxx, he is hideous' (to which
	religionists reply 'how can you make value judgments about
	something I have defined as pure good?')."

I *thought* Rich was around last summer.... Anyway, Rich's "reasonable
reason" is pretty much *his* a priori decision on things, including the
Bible, or whether or not a certain act is "hideous." The last sentence
is Rich's misinterpretation based on using only *part* of xxx.

RR: "Larry asks if I have all the facts? Does he? Does he have more
	facts than you or I have? Or does he say 'I can never have all
	the facts, so I'll make my decision based on no facts.'?"

Maybe we should branch into a discussion of epistemology - "How do we
know that we know?" Rationalism's circularity would prove interesting.

RR (commenting on me):
> > I would rather have a totalitarian system (even if I were in the
> > minority) than that.
> It's spring. The religionists are all blossoming in their true colors.
Dick Dunn: "I'd buy anarchy over totalitarianism because I suspect that
	a chaotic situation is easier to deal with than an organized
	attempt to do me in."

Chaotic situations are easy to deal with: Gun Control and the Golden
Rule. :-) I can only fathom that RR prefers anarchy. I hope he's got his
house and family well-supplied and -protected; when anything goes, just
about anything can happen.

RR:
> > Ken Almquist:
> > >...humanism does not believe ... that future happiness is
> > >incompatible with present happiness.
> > No, it just tries to evade reality's second lesson.
> Which is?

Quoth me, same article (in fact, requoted by Rich in *his*):
"Reality ... has taught me two things:
 ...
 There is often a connection between actions and thoughts today and those
 several years down the road - but this is only brought up when man wants
 to escape his own guilt."

RR: "People do mischief precisely because human beings are not raised in
	a rational fashion."

Poppycock. I tried to explain before (maybe the reader isn't *capable*
of understanding it? :-), you can't give a rational explanation to those
incapable of understanding the reason. [OK, KID, WE'RE GOING TO LET YOU
DROWN SO YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHY YOU NEED TO BE ABLE TO SWIM.]

RR: "A person's 'own guilt' is based only on a 'judgment' by your
	internal court."

Ooh, first class humanism. No absolute standards. Just convince yourself
that killing the guy is OK, and there's nooooo problem.

RR: "(Maybe Larry assumes that we all see him in the mirror.)"

Strip off the outward appearance and man is pretty much the same.

RR: "...the way science is taught in some schools does not reflect the
	true nature of science ... Maybe that's how Larry learned science."

Blame the California public school system, USC and UCLA. Bausch&Lomb,
Bank of America, and some others seemed to like the way I was learning.

RR: Finally, about your need to proclaim danger, remember that it is
	illegal to yell 'theatre' in a crowded fire."

Misapplication - that's a restriction on free speech, not genuine warning.
Besides, where's the crowd?

Dick Dunn (quoting Dave Norris):
> >Larry was not attacking any individual; he was attacking a document...
> No sale. If it were an empty document, with no one here subscribing to
> any of the things it says, you would be right - but then Larry
> wouldn't have attacked with such vigor.

Half right. The document wasn't empty, but it was not any individual I
was going after. Dick wonders what "positive motive" I could have, thinking
"Bickford went overboard," wondering "what's going on inside Larry that
manifests itself at the surface in this way." (all quotes from rcd)

The main problem with both the posted article and HMs I and II is that
they are only half. It is only when one pauses to study them and see
what their fulness is that one realizes what is really going on. But
because of the high-sounding language and the lofty position they place
man in, few push on. But those that do, find things others want hidden.

I am not opposed to "freedom, justice, and peace." But the humanist
version of each of them isn't. Freedom is the desire and ability to do
what you should; the humanist version is pure license. Humanist justice
keeps the criminals on the streets and people behind barred windows.
Humanistic peace is accomplished through total domination (their
"universal society"; let's hear it for local control).
-- 
			The Ice Floe of Larry Bickford
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