Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: Notesfiles; site ea.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxl!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm From: mwm@ea.UUCP Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Jon's 5 points - (nf) Message-ID: <11300002@ea.UUCP> Date: Tue, 6-Mar-84 14:21:00 EDT Article-I.D.: ea.11300002 Posted: Tue Mar 6 14:21:00 1984 Date-Received: Mon, 21-May-84 04:33:33 EDT References: <861@ssc-vax.UUCP> Lines: 33 Nf-ID: #R:ssc-vax:-86100:ea:11300002:000:1510 Nf-From: ea!mwm Mar 6 23:21:00 1984 #R:ssc-vax:-86100:ea:11300002:000:1510 ea!mwm Mar 6 23:21:00 1984 /***** ea:net.religion / bbncca!rrizzo / 10:01 pm Mar 2, 1984 */ Talking about knowing everything (past, present, future) at once and for always (in order to be able to say that God need not indulge in "predictions") is MEANINGLESS. Such a God would exist "out of time", which is the same as saying such a God does not exist. The very idea of "existence" we use depends on the prior idea of "time". /* ---------- */ You have just placed a constraint on God (God :== Creator of the Universe) that he cannot logically satisfy. Since God (by definition) created the Universe, he must exist outside of it. Since the universe bounds time, he must exist outside of time, also. You claim this implies that God doesn't exist. You might try arguing that the Universe does not bound time. In that case, you better define time without making reference to matter in any way. Somehow, I think you'll have trouble doing it. Actually, you can't conclude anything about something that exists outside of time/the universe. We know zero about anything in such a state, and can't possible know anything about anything in such a state. All you can say is that it doesn't exist in any manner we can detect. Of course, the laws of physics as I believe them imply that said thing can't detect us either, but that's a rather moot point. I just realized that, if you allow the above, laura's argument that omniscience implies determinism doesn't wash. God uses methods we can't, so we still can't determine our future.