Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-h
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!mgnetp!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:aeq
From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: thoughts on desperation
Message-ID: <740@pucc-h>
Date: Thu, 31-May-84 02:33:54 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.740
Posted: Thu May 31 02:33:54 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 2-Jun-84 09:05:40 EDT
References: <7865@watmath.UUCP>
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Lines: 127

Sheesh....  I come out with one of the most positive, triumphant articles I've
ever posted to this group, and Sophie Quigley rakes me over the coals!

> Why in the world do you have to equate homosexual feelings with "not being a
> man"?  (what is a "man" anyway?)

I never made such an equation.	I indicated that the homosexual feelings were
a CONSEQUENCE of feeling "not really a man".  What is a "man"?	Come on, this
is abnormal psych we're talking; it doesn't have to make sense! :-)
Seriously, I'm not 100% sure; but I think part of the problem is that, having
been born in 1955, I was too much imbued with the idea that one had to be
macho in order to be male.  I was a whiz kid, 2 years ahead of my "normal"
grade in school, still beating most of the other kids academically (and the
same height as most of my classmates, or things would have been worse), but
still 2 years behind them in development of strength and coordination.	Thus I
was no athlete -- and the mid-60's were still a relatively unenlightened era,
when society "required" males to be athletic.  Also, for most of my life, I
had no full-time male role model (remember, my parents divorced when I was 8).
Thus I had no one from whom to learn how a man acts around other people (of
either sex.

I think these were the two main reasons why I didn't feel myself to be a
man.  The fact that the first one is based on a false premise did not prevent
me from believing it; remember that the macho ideal thoroughly imbued the
society of that era (including the other boys in school, who lost no chance to
put me down), and so this belief in my own unmanliness was probably fixed by
the time I was 10 -- well before my critical faculties had reached any
significant level of maturity.

> why are your desires for women
> "normal" and your desires for men "based on sickness and pain"?

I wasn't spouting doctrine.  I was giving experiential evidence; i.e. the past
times when I have been really bummed out have generally been the times when my
homosexual desires have been strongest.  When I was feeling reasonably good
about myself and the world, my homosexual desires submerged; in fact,
especially in the last year or two, I actually did date women a few times
(i.e. my rendezvous earlier this evening was not the first in a century).
Thus it's not a question of "why" heterosexuality is normal, and homosexuality
not; based on my experience (and on some case histories I've read), they just
ARE that way.

> As you seem to be in very close contact with your God, you should really
> make sure that he REALLY disproves of those homosexual feelings you have
> before you reject them as "sick" and throw yourself at women instead
> because you think it is the "right" thing to do....

Let us put it this way:  Based solely on my "close contact", I consider it
certain that He much prefers heterosexuality to homosexuality.	(I won't
even mention the many Biblical utterances against homosexuality.)  I don't go
for women because I think it's "right".  I do it because that's what I really
want to do; women are great people, with (in general) certain qualities of
warmth and tenderness which I just can't get even from my closest male
friends -- and I'm not talking about sex, I'm talking about the persons
inside the bodies.

> If your God is a god of Love as you say he is, he might accept many
> different types of Love, and if he doesn't why doesn't he?  you should also
> ask him that. 

I do not deny that genuine love -- i.e. love which naturally expresses itself
in truly caring for the other person's needs, helping to bring them joy and
soothe their hurts -- can exist in homosexual relationships.  This would only
make sense; I'm well aware that members of any type of couple, straight or
gay, not only can but ought to be good friends if the relationship is going to
really satisfy either person (again, more than the body).  But it is my thesis
(not based on extensive research, but plausible from what I've read) that a
gay relationship doesn't quite satisfy, but is rather chosen as an ersatz
substitute for the wonder of knowing and being known by -- and loving and
being loved by -- a motOs, someone so different from you that probably even
after many years together, you still won't understand all the ways in which
that person's mind works differently from yours.

> Your words make it sound as though you are interested in relationships with
> women only so that they can "save" you from your desires for men.  If that
> is so, that doesn't sound very good for the woman you will have a
> relationship with.  Shouldn't she deserve to be loved for who she is
> rather than because she is "saving" you from other people you love?

I guess this shoots the thesis which one frequent net.singles contributor
told me in a letter: that I'm good at expressing myself in words.  I grant
that this was a subtle point.  But I thought that what I said was that I
realized that I DO desire/love/whatever this young lady for what she is, and
that it was this realization that enabled me to know that I am truly a man
(since I have a desire such as any healthy, normal man might have), and thus
in one swell foop [sic] pretty well get rid of the homosexuality.

> And if you love other people and they also love you, wouldn't you all be
> more happy just loving each other rather than trying to pretend you don't?

Yes.  But this is not the case.  My homosexual desires, as I indicated, have
arisen when I was really in poor psychological shape; thus it's hard to class
them as "love" -- more as desperate need.  Anyway, most of the homosexuals of
my (casual) acquaintance seem to have a marked streak of rottenness not far
from the (usually) pleasant surface; this is not a streak of meanness or
nastiness, but rather what seems (to my casually but observantly acquainted
eye) to be self-loathing; this is not attractive.  Finally...the most powerful
homosexual desire I ever felt was when I was 27; the object of it was hardly
over half my age.  Surely you would not wish me to be pederastic?  No sense in
having a nice kid pay for my problems.

> I am not alone in thinking that it is possible to be both a Christian and
> homosexual (I can look up some references for you if you are interested).

I half agree with this.  Certainly homosexuals can become Christians.  But I
do not believe that a choice to continue in homosexuality is consistent with
Christianity.  On the other hand [we have five fingers and a thumb :-)], it
is possible that God might not remove one's homosexual desires immediately
after one becomes a Christian, or even immediately after one asks for help
from God in dealing with them.	There may be other areas of you that God
thinks need work even more than your sexuality.  But those who deliberately
continue in their homosexuality -- claiming it to be a perfectly good,
normal expression of love -- "glory in their shame".

I am aware of one book that has popped up on the net before, and recently
("Christianity, Homosexuality, and Social Tolerance"), but I have not had a
chance to read it yet.


Everyone:  Did my previous article really so fail to express my true meaning
that any other intelligent person would have interpreted it as Sophie did?


-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
{allegra|decvax|harpo|ihnp4|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq
"...I've got to be where my spirit can run free..."