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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!allegra!princeton!mark
From: mark@princeton.UUCP (Mark Weiss)
Newsgroups: net.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Runner's tagging up and 4 outs.
Message-ID: <189@princeton.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 17-May-84 16:01:37 EDT
Article-I.D.: princeto.189
Posted: Thu May 17 16:01:37 1984
Date-Received: Fri, 18-May-84 06:49:29 EDT
References: <310@drutx.UUCP> <188@princeton.UUCP>, <325@drutx.UUCP>
Organization: Princeton Univ. EECS
Lines: 42


	It is NOT a FORCE play.  I said I didn't think the rules were
consistent.
	I've seen this question in the Sporting News several times and
Hal (of ask Hal the Referee) always gives the same answer.
	The general rule is:

		No run may score when a forced third out is made.
		A forced third out is:
			a) A runner failing to reach first base;
			b) Any runners forced to ADVANCE failing to reach
			    their bases.

	In the situation we have, the runner isn't forced to advance.
	The runner on first who is doubled off is equivalent to this 
situation:
	Runners on first and third, two outs.  Double steal is called for.
Catcher throws to second as runner from third comes down the line. 
Ball beats runner to second so he goes back to first.
Rundown ensues and runner is tagged after run scored.  Run of course 
counts.

	On the other hand, runner on third two outs.  Third strike 
dropped by catcher.  If catcher's throw to first base beats runner,
the run CANNOT score under any circumstances.
	One more example:
	Two outs, bases loaded.  Batter hits fair ball over fence.
		a) Batter fails to touch first.  On appeal he is out, no 
			runs count.
		b) Batter fails to touch second or third base.  On appeal he
			is out but all three runs count.
		c) Batter passes runner on basepaths.  Umpire will declare
			batter out and the inning will end at that exact
			instant.  Any runs that have scored count.

	Any proffesional UMPIRES out there?   Are these rules different in
softball and non-major league baseball??

					Mark A. Weiss
					Princeton University
					Electrical Engineering and Comp. Sci.
					princeton!mark
					princeton!tilt!mark