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From: dubois@uwmacc.UUCP
Newsgroups: net.motss
Subject: Re: History and homosexuality
Message-ID: <144@uwmacc.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 12-Jul-84 16:06:50 EDT
Article-I.D.: uwmacc.144
Posted: Thu Jul 12 16:06:50 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 14-Jul-84 01:03:20 EDT
References: <8442@brunix.UUCP>, <121@uwmacc.UUCP>, <356@pyuxss.UUCP> <137@uwmacc.UUCP>, <2095@rlgvax.UUCP>
Organization: UWisconsin-Madison Academic Comp Center
Lines: 88


> [Guy Harris writes...]
> How about a Nice Simple Rule:
> 
> 	All practices divergent from the "norm" will be assumed OK until
> 	*PROVEN* otherwise.
> 
> Absent any evidence that homosexuality rots the mind, curves the spine, or
> loses the war for the Allies (Norman Podhoretz' theories nonwithstanding),
> how about if everybody who thinks homosexuality may be a Bad Thing kept that
> opinion to themselves?  Statements about civilizations which accepted
> homosexuality "falling" don't serve any useful purpose until it is shown
> that accepting homosexuality contributed to the downfall of that civilization;
> they merely serve to annoy people and to stigmatize people who've done nothing
> to deserve that stigma.


Well.

This is certainly news to me.  Evidently, the allegations that
homosexuality rots the mind, curves the spine, and lost the
war for the Allies are to be attributed to my thinking.
That attribution may easily be dismissed as irrelevant and
imflammatory, as there is no support for it from what I have
written.  It may (or may not) be true, but I have expressed
no opinion one way or the other.

In addition, I have also apparently made the statement that
civilizations fall as a result of accepting homosexuality:

> Statements about civilizations which accepted homosexuality "falling"
> don't serve any useful purpose until it is shown that accepting
> homosexuality contributed to the downfall of that civilization;

In point of fact, I asked a *question*, namely,

>> what is the relation between the incidence of homosexuality
>> and the society in which it is manifested?  I have read
>> {heard, etc.} that every society which has allowed itself
>> to embrace homosexuality has quickly fallen.  Anyone have
>> any information on this?

Perhaps my intent has been misinterpreted.  I am, repeat,
*asking a question*, with no particular conclusion in mind.
I am looking for information, i.e., that which reduces
uncertainty, concerning a relation which may (or may not)
exist.  Clearly the relation needs to be established before
we can even begin to discuss whether causality may be construed.
So far, no one has submitted evidence either to establish or
refute such a relation.

As for the "nice simple rule", I have already said, and have
been given no reason to think otherwise, that

>>	It is perfectly reasonable to look upon divergent
>> viewpoints and practices with skepticism, at least initially.
>> (If anyone is inclined to doubt that, consider that you have
>> then expressed skepticism towards my viewpoint and therefore
>> have proven the thrust of my observation.)  Conversely, it is
>> unreasonable to uncritically accept all viewpoints without
>> complaint, for adherence to certain viewpoints many times is
>> inconsistent with adherence to certain others.  If consistency
>> is regarded favorably, some views must be rejected.

> 	All practices divergent from the "norm" will be assumed OK until
> 	*PROVEN* otherwise.

Guy's objecting to my statement proves that he also thinks it
is reasonable to question another's viewpoint.  Hence he agrees
with me.


---
By the way, I do not know who Norman Podhoretz is, hence, I am
unfamiliar with his writings.  If there is something of his
which applies to this discussion, someone please submit a
reference and I will make an attempt to read it.  Maybe I
shouldn't say that.  It might give the impression of
open-mindedness.  Such a characteristic obviously ought not be
attributed to me, since I include a Scripture verse in my
.signature file; I am clearly a homophobic fundamentalist
bigot.  Clearly.
-- 

Paul DuBois		{allegra,ihnp4,seismo}!uwvax!uwmacc!dubois

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist...
						Colossians 1:17