Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: Notesfiles; site ea.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxl!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!uiucdcs!ea!mwm From: mwm@ea.UUCP Newsgroups: net.philosophy Subject: Re: Re: Re: Whither Are We Drifting? - (nf) Message-ID: <9800008@ea.UUCP> Date: Mon, 25-Jun-84 18:31:00 EDT Article-I.D.: ea.9800008 Posted: Mon Jun 25 18:31:00 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 28-Jun-84 04:57:57 EDT References: <1005@ihuxq.UUCP> Lines: 35 Nf-ID: #R:ihuxq:-100500:ea:9800008:000:1676 Nf-From: ea!mwm Jun 25 17:31:00 1984 #R:ihuxq:-100500:ea:9800008:000:1676 ea!mwm Jun 25 17:31:00 1984 /***** ea:net.philosophy / mit-eddi!lkk / 11:01 pm Jun 22, 1984 */ Not entirely correct. The Nazis didn't run their govt. "for the good of the people" as much as "the good of the fatherland". Socialism, as defined by the vast majority of socialists in the west, is "popular control of the means of production". If an unpopular govt. controls the means of production, that is no more socialism than any other oligarchy. /* ---------- */ You're right, the Nazis did claim they were running the production of Germany "for the good of the fatherland." However, they had popular support at least until WWII started. Pulling your country out of a recession is good for your public image. Since this was good for much of the populace, the Nazi party at least started out as socialists. (Side thought - does this make pre-WWII Germany another socialist success story. :-) Your definition of socialism has a serious deficiency. The term "popular control" is vague. Do you mean elected officials? A benevolent dictator? How about voting on what is done with the production? Say, by buying the product produced? No? Could you tell me what you think it should be? I'm not sure I see the difference between "popular control of the means of production" as opposed to "running the production facilities for the good of the people", except that 1) popular control leave who decides vague, as opposed to unspecified; and 2) in the latter case the people get what's really good for them, as opposed to what they think is good for them (if these things happen to be different, of course).