Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 exptools 1/6/84; site ihu1e.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxl!ihnp4!ihu1e!nowlin From: nowlin@ihu1e.UUCP (Jerry Nowlin) Newsgroups: net.religion,net.misc Subject: Is god a bad example? Message-ID: <275@ihu1e.UUCP> Date: Wed, 27-Jun-84 14:05:49 EDT Article-I.D.: ihu1e.275 Posted: Wed Jun 27 14:05:49 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 28-Jun-84 05:51:11 EDT Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL Lines: 114 This is going to net.misc because I want the opinions of middle of the road people. From what I've seen of net.religion it consists of fanatics at one end of the spectrum or the other. I'm interested in their replys too, but I wonder how Mr. and Ms. average go to church on Sunday morning feel about these inconsistancies or if they ignore them for their own peace of mind. I realize that religion and logic don't mix. I hope I get some logical responses anyway. I just finished perusing net.religion for the first time. I only gave it a whirl because I saw an article in net.flame that originated here. I've avoided this group for a couple of reasons. 1) I've always found discussions on the technical aspects of religion, like whether this or that translation from the original latin or greek is more accurate, to be boring and of no practical use. I assumed, only partially correctly, that there would be a lot of that kind of technical gook in this group. 2) I tend to start foaming at the mouth, ranting, and raving soon after discussions turn to the subject of religion. I have definite opinions stemming from a strong christian background and a gradual but complete "loss of faith" over the last 10 or 12 years. I don't have the time to spend ranting or raving so I didn't want to read anything that would get me started. But, I read and now I would like answers to some questions I have, and reactions to some of my opinions. On the bible: I'm one of the first people to admit that the bible (I mean the christian old and new testaments by bible) is an interesting and informative book in places. It is also frequently historically accurate. But a book or any other form of information doesn't have to be non-fiction to contain some truth. I'm a big science fiction fan. Science fiction has lots of truth in it. In 2000 years when someone uncovers a copy of "2001: A Space Odyssey" and finds that they can correlate most of the scientific facts contained in it with references from other works of the period will they start looking around for the monolith? This may be a bad analogy since the bible comes closer to fantasy than science fiction. On miracles: I want to know whether god still works miracles in this day and age. When I was little I used to wonder why god would let children be born with no legs and things like that. I asked my parents, Sunday School teachers, and preachers. The response I got was always along the lines of "god has gone back to heaven and doesn't interfere on earth now. He wants us to make our own decisions free from his direct intervention." That sounds like the greatest cop out I've ever heard. When a elder almost died of cancer while I was in high school they held a prayer vigil that went for a couple days continuously. When he recovered after the doctors said he didn't have any chance it was heralded as a miracle. When another man died of a heart attack after a couple days in the hospital and praying didn't do any good they claimed it was god's will. What about all the miraculous recoveries of people who have no one to pray for them? What make the recoveries of the ones that were prayed for special? You can't have it both ways. Either god is performing miracles or he isn't. If you want to give the credit to god he ought to have to take the blame too. I've heard all the arguments about how satan does the nasty stuff. I suppose god just stands around acting like the 3 monkeys while satan's at it? What do you think? That brings me to the next question. On christian responsibility: Christians are constantly exhorted to be as much like christ as they can. God expects us to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the imprisoned, heal the sick, etc., and generally behave in a godly manner. You don't have to be a christian to show respect for others and feel sympathy for and give assistance to people that need it. An individual can only do so much though. God on the other hand by definition should be able to see all the misery and suffering in the world, and has the power, according to the bible, to do something about it. I see no evidence of god behaving in a godly or christ like manner. The excuse I hear most often for this lack of intervention is the one I listed above. He doesn't work in those ways anymore. In other words he is sitting up there in heaven on his butt watching all this horror go on down here and it's up to us? You don't need examples from my personal experience to become fed up with god's indifference. The state of the world in general should be enough to bring a responsible person with the ability to do something about it up out of their chair. Since god's still sitting around up there some where and doesn't seem to care about mankind or this planet in general why should he care about individuals. Who are christians supposed to model themselves after? A deity who hasn't bothered to actively take their side for almost 2000 years? On complacency: What really burns me up is the fact that so many people accept things that are less that ideal because "it's god's will." There are so many people that settle for a less than perfect life here on earth because their true reward will be in heaven. If they would just put forth some effort they could make life better for themselves and the rest of the world now. Instead they wait around to die and receive their just deserts. I'm not talking about getting rich or famous. If it's god's will that a baby be born with a cleft palate that doesn't mean you can't have it fixed with surgery. If it's god's will that your house burn down your not going to sit in it or even just walk outside and watch. You'll call the fire department and maybe try putting it out yourself. Religion is a safe place to hide from the harsh realities of the real world. Some people hold their bibles in front of themselves and their children like a shield against the rest of the world. These people don't contribute to society. They stifle it's growth and their own. On fear: I can vividly remember back in the hot years of the cold war, laying in bed at night and staring out my window wondering if I'd remembered to pray to be forgiven for all the things I'd done wrong that day. I was watching out the window for the flash of the first bomb, but I was scared of hell not the bomb. I didn't stay in line because of some understanding of right or wrong but because I was scared of hell. I don't want my kids to go through that. I try to teach them right for the sake of right. I've sat through too many sermons where the preacher didn't even mention the carrot (heaven). He just concentrated on waving the stick (hell). There's enough to be worried about in this life without carrying that kind of fear around. I don't know whether god exists or not. I do know that if god isn't going to do anymore for the world than I've seen in the last 30 years I don't need his help. If god does exist and I ever get to meet him I expect to spend more time chewing him out than thanking him for anything and I have a feeling he could care less. Jerry Nowlin ihnp4!ihu1e!nowlin