Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site pucc-h Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxl!houxm!ihnp4!inuxc!pur-ee!CS-Mordred!Pucc-H:aeq From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent) Newsgroups: net.religion Subject: Re: Christian Persecution of Jews Message-ID: <860@pucc-h> Date: Thu, 19-Jul-84 12:48:59 EDT Article-I.D.: pucc-h.860 Posted: Thu Jul 19 12:48:59 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 21-Jul-84 02:34:07 EDT References: <145@usfbobo.UUCP>, <1700026@iuvax.UUCP> Organization: Purdue University Computing Center Lines: 78 Reply to Daryel Akerlind (it is refreshing to respond to someone with honest questions): > While it is certainly the case that many "christian" atrocities were > perpetrated by those who were only nominally christian, it is just as > certain that many were perpetrated by people who were sincere and devout > and earnestly striving to be truly christian. Could you provide an example? It is possible that some large mistakes (e.g. the Crusades) had "Christians" of both the sincere and the false types, but are there any examples where the sole perpetrators of atrocities were those who believed themselves to be doing God's will? (I'm not saying there were none, I'm just saying I haven't heard of any.) > Then we are forced to the conclusion that a christian, be > he ever so devout and earnest in his efforts to follow the Lord, can be > horribly mistaken in his interpretations of what is god's will. We are > forced to conclude that a devout and earnest christian, having prayed for > god's guidance on an issue and believing god to have answered him, can yet > be hideously in error. True. That is why, in Christianity and many other religions, there is a book provided to give a general idea of God's (or Allah's, or whoever's) nature, whereby what one thinks to be God's will can be tested. I will admit that one snag in this argument is that (as hashed over some time ago already) the Old Testament itself describes a great deal of destruction, in each case preceded by "Then the LORD said unto {Moses,Joshua,...}, 'Attack this kingdom and blow all its people off the face of the earth.'" [Quote from *The Livid Bible*, paraphrased edition, by Jeff Sargent :-)] Yet even the Old Testament, in some of the same books as these attacks are recorded, suggests that God would like for people's usual interactions to be kind and loving; the Old Testament law limited this to the Israelites, while the New Testament extended it to all people (at least I think there were cases in the O.T. where the Israelites were told that these laws applied only to treatment of other Israelites; anyone care to confirm or correct me on that?). Thus, a Christian with a good overall knowledge of his Bible ought to be a bit suspicious of any supposed answer from God that commands him to do something that would be considered an atrocity. > If a devout christian can be so wrong in his perceptions of god's will and > god's answers to his prayers, then he can also be wrong in his many > beliefs that rest on such perceptions. See above. Christianity is not such a totally subjective belief (though neither is it a cold, completely intellectual belief in the Bible). Anyway, a quote which I like (but often lack the courage to apply) is (approximately): "A person who will not dare to be mistaken about the will of God will never come to know God any better." (Dr. Paul Tournier) In other words, for instance, if one is in a situation where several different courses of action (or deliberate inaction) are possible, it is better to pick one and go with it (as long as it stands up to Scripture) than to spend a lot of time worrying about whether it's God's will. I know from experience that sometimes it may initially appear that one has made a tremendous mistake, resulting in great emotional agony to oneself, but later one discovers that that was really the best thing that could have happened, that it corrected some flaw in one in the most effective possible way. If you wish, I will send you private mail describing one instance of this. > If once a christian admits that he can be totally wrong in his perceptions > of god's will and god's answers to his prayers, then what is left of his > religious beliefs? It seems to me that most, if not all, of the support to > his beliefs has been kicked away. Again, this depends on whether you consider belief in the Bible's value to be merely a matter of one's individual perception. I don't consider all the above to be perfect answers, but they are at least attempts. I wish I could come up with a reasonable, compassionate answer to your other recent article, entitled "Punish Non-Belief?"; but I'm having a tough time. One possible answer is given in my paragraph above about the Tournier quote: Try *something*! (Anyone else want to reply to that article, assuming it hasn't expired from your system?) -- -- Jeff Sargent {allegra|decvax|harpo|ihnp4|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq "...got to find my corner of the sky."