Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!ittvax!dcdwest!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!hplabs!sri-unix!BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET@Berkeley From: BALZAC%YKTVMZ.BITNET%Berkeley@sri-unix.UUCP Newsgroups: net.sf-lovers Subject: Star Trek III Message-ID: <1791@sri-arpa.UUCP> Date: Mon, 9-Jul-84 14:19:42 EDT Article-I.D.: sri-arpa.1791 Posted: Mon Jul 9 14:19:42 1984 Date-Received: Fri, 13-Jul-84 01:23:59 EDT Lines: 238 From: Stephen R. Balzac Here's the result of a Star Trek debate that went on out here where I am between some people not all on the net: Let's talk about Enterprise. We know many of her particulars, many others we can guess at. One of the nice things about all three ST movies is that, at the very least, the producers et. al. seem to do their homework; they attempt to be consistent with the already existent ST world (make that universe). But a bad mistake surfaced in STIII: Enterprise is not "twenty years old." Witness: we know, from the animated episode "The Counter-Clock Incident," that the first captain of Enterprise was Robert April. Although we are not told for how long he commanded the ship, it is probably safe to assume somewhere between one and five years. But, to be absolutely safe, let us also include the possibility that April was aboard an even shorter time. We know, from the animated episode "Time Trap," that Enterprise was the first Constellation-size vessel to incorporate the warp drive. So let us say that April commanded Enterprise merely for that mission--test of the warp drive in Constellation-size ships. Still, he would be aboard for a week, at the least. Now, we know another--probably the second--captain of Enterprise: Christopher Pike. In the episode "The Menagerie," Spock notes, while watching the tapes (transmissions) that the events are from "thirteen years ago." Since we see a bond between Kirk and Spock, it is evident that they have both been aboard Enterprise for at least a short time. But, again to be safe and give a minimum estimate, let's say that Spock's commandeering of Enterprise took place at the very end of Kirk's five-year command, and that Enterprise's first visit to Talos IV took place at the very beginning of Pike's command. That means that there was a span of at least eight years between Pike's first day oboard Enterprise and Kirk's first day. Then, of course, we know that Kirk commanded Enterprise for five years. Then, from STTMP, we know that Enterprise was in dry dock, being refitted, for at least two-and-a-half years. And from STII, we know (since Kirk says he hasn's seen Khan in fifteen years) that at least seven-and-a-half years have taken place between STTMP and STII. And, of course, there was no time lag to speak of between STII and STIII. So, let's add up our time: Minimum Maximum April: 1 week 5 years (let's assume) Pike+: 8 years 13 years Kirk: 5 years 5 years STTMP: 2.5 years 2.5 years STII: 7.5 years 8.5 years --------- --------- 23 years 1 week/ 34 years So, it would appear that Enterprise is at least twenty-three years old. In that case, it is understandable for somebody to say she is twenty years old. More than likely, though, she is twenty-eight to thirty-four years old. I don't know; I would like some clarification in STIV about this point. What do you know about naval procedure? Could you tell me a little bit (if you know) about decommissioning vessels, and the renaming procdeure for destroyed vessels? Also, are courts-martial strictly internal to the service? That is (assuming that Starfleet follows naval procedure, for the most part), would Kirk and co. be tried by the Federation government--hijacking, trespassing, destruction of government propery, etc.--or would the matter be strictly in Starfleet's hands? And could a court-martial result in Kirk staying in the service, with, as you suggested, merely a demotion in rank? First of all, the animated episodes are notoriously inaccurate. I wouldn't consider anything they say to be very important. Further, I don't see what the exact age of the Enterprise has to do with anything. If its more than 20 years old, then that's all the more reason for decommissioning it. I don't really consider this a very serious point. As for Naval customs, etc: Generally, the navy names a new vessel of a given class after one of that class that's been destroyed (or something). Witness how many aircraft carriers have been named Enterprise (that's the most famous example--there's been at least half a dozen). Since StarFleet seems patterned much after Earth 20th Century naval customs, they will probably do something similiar. Court-martials: If StarFleet follows typical military procedure, then the courtmartial is an internal affair, which the civilian courts will never have anything to do with. Normally, I suppose Kirk would be thrown out of the service, at best, but for the following points: 1. If he hadn't stolen Enterprise, the Klingons would have gotten Genesis out of David. No way he could withstand Klingon "interrogation" for long. Although Genesis was a failure at what it was supposed to be, it would have been a deadly weapon in Klingon hands, the Organian Peace Treaty not withstanding. 2. Vulcan is a very powerful member of the Federation. Implication is that it is the co-capital (with Earth). With Vulcan backing him, StarFleet is going to be careful about what they do to Kirk, as they won't want to offend the Vulcans. 3. Kirk is, according to StarFleet command (I forget the name of the guy, the one who said that the Enterprise was being decommissioned), one of the best men in StarFleet. Witness, he managed to steal a starship, right from under StarFleet's collective nose. Cashiering such a person would be tremendous waste of manpower. As Vulcan will undoubtably point out: "It would be highly illogical." My point about Enterprise's age is not what I would consider a serious point, and I was not making in order to defend Enterprise's being decommissioned; it's just that I would think that Commander Starfleet would know the Enterprise's age. It just bugs me, that's all. As for the animateds, yes, they must be taken with a grain of salt. Nonetheless, they must be taken in some way, I believe. After all, it is from "Bem" that we come to know Kirk's middle name (which is a nice detail, I think). You bring up excellent points about Kirk's case. David surely would have been subjected to the mind-sifter, which, as you say, he could not possibly withstand. In this way of looking at it, Kirk retrieved Genesis from--or, at least, kept it from being captured by--the Klingon Empire. Also, Vulcan would seem to be a major force in the Federation, one that probably would be a formidible opposition if it came to that. In addition, it would seem certain that Sarek will come to Kirk's defense, as will T'Pau (I assume) and T'Lar (I also assume). And then there is Kirk's record to consider. Brilliant might be an understatement. All good points, well made. But it also seems that Kirk is manipulating Starfleet. I believe what Kirk has done was moral, and he was not wrong for disobeying orders. And most of the times he has disobeyed orders in the past, he has been shown to have been right. But won't Starfleet try to put some kind of restraint on Kirk? I mean, sure, he's a great captain and leader, a brilliant strategist and dedicated explorer. But he continually disobeys orders. A starship out in space, away from Starfleet, must surely be autonomous in many ways. But Starfleet certainly can't want to chance Kirk's usurping his power. I guess this calls into question Kirk's integrity and loyalty to the ederation and Starfleet. And I guess we need go no further if that is the case. There is one major point to be considered, though. Kirk was justified in his actions: Spock is alive. Because of Kirk. This can be part of Kirk's defense, but. . . . What will the Federation worlds think of Genesis and its implications? It is already a "galactic controversy." And now a man has been brought back to life because of it. That is not what really happened, but it is what will be thought of those who do not understand or believe in "Vulcan mysticism." I mean, what Genesis really did was clone Spock's body. It regenerated some of his cells, and surely those cells must already have been alive. Spock died of exposure to radiation, but at least some of his cells would live for a short time. And Gensesis, in effect, cloned him. That is not any big deal. We almost--any perhaps do--have that technology now. The major point, which might be disbelieved or overlooked by many, is that Spock's consciousness was not regenerated; it was in McCoy. How could Genesis regenerate a consciousness? David and Carol and the others would had to have known what constituted a consciousness (in which case Paramount would have had to make some heavy statements about the nature of mind and body). Apparently, creating consciousness is still beyond 23rd century science--which is believable. My whole point here is, will Starfleet want to reveal to the masses that Spock is alive? Surely the news of his death was spread throughout the various media. His rebirth, as it were, cwould be equally publicized. And many people might feel Genesis to be immoral, and Spock a part of that immorality. I think we have a very interesting dilemma here. The dilemma would end with Spock, though. There is no more Genesis. The only living member of the science team that developed Genesis, it seems, is Carol. Surely she could rebuild it with her knowledge; it would take years to redevelop, controversy brewing the entire time. And it would take years--Khan found all the Genesis data erased when he arrived at Regula I. As for Kirk's loyalty, well I wouldn't worry much about that. His record seems to show that he's loyal. If he weren't he could probably be ruling the Federation, with the help of some of the advanced races he's found (the Andromedans, for example). As for Spock being the subject of controversy. There are several ways of dealing with this, the simplist is probably to state something like the following: As everyone knows, Vulcans have remarkable regenerative capabilities, and when regenerating, are often in a trance that simulates death so closely it can fool the best of medical technology. Spock really didn't die, and the Genesis radiation simply aided his recovery. Not entirely true, I will admit, but close enough, and the people who know the truth won't talk. As for everyone else, the majority of people know about Vulcans only by hearsay (one planet, out of how many? Vulcans can't be all that usual a sight), and they'll accept it at face value. Some people may suspect that there's something more, but majority of them will probably be in StarFleet anyway. Finally, I doubt that the Secretary of the Navy know the ages of naval vessels better than to a rough appoximation. Also, the Enterprise was not the first vessel of its type, the Constitution was (that's why they're call Constitution Class vessels, not Enterprise Class vessels), so the age estimate is probably off a bit there. Your point about the age of Enterprise is well-taken. I concede my case. Commander Starfleet Morrow is a busy man, after all. Nice try with the Spock story, too. It should work, and since Genesis is no longer operational--or even existent--controversy should subside. I do not want Kirk to command Excelsior. That is just the way I feel. I was upset that David was killed, and I think it would have benefited Star Trek in the long run if his character were to have survived (even if didn't appear in another episode for half-a-dozen years). And I was upset that Spock was brought back, but very happy about it, too. And the way they brought him back was at least consistent with the ST universe. But the thing that really got to me was the destruction of the Enterprise. Now, though, I think it was a good thing to do, as far as the series goes. First of all, it surprised me (I stayed away from all rumors, articles, and commercials about Trek between STII and STIII). It almost surprised me into an early grave. It was nearly ar traumatic an experience as when Spock "died." (I knew, for the most part, that Spock would die, due to the media hype. Therefore, I wasn't surprised like I was about Enterprise's destruction.) But it was en emotional experience, good drama, and that is what Trek must be in addition to all of its philisophical ideas. I hate to see Enterprise die, but better to die by saving Kirk's and company's lives than to waste away by being decommissioned and dismantled. There can be no Enterprise II--why build another Constitution-class vessel when there are more modern ships. And so there will be no new ship of Enterprise's class. Kirk commanding Excelsior? "These are the voyages of the starship Excelsior. . . ?" I hate it. I hated Excelsior when I saw her because, knowing Enterprise was being decommissioned, it was easy to blame Excelsior for that. I hate Excelsior and its captain. How about a new Excelsior-class (?) vessel for Kirk? Not Enterprise II, but. . .what? Explorer? Voyager? Journeyer? Venture? Just some ideas. Nothing, I fear, can replace the name Enterprise. (Discovery is another idea, but Arthur C. Clarke might have something to say about that.) I'd have to check on the details of the renaming conventions, but I suspect that even if its an Excelsior Class vessel, it'll be named Enterprise. This is chiefly based on the fact that there's always been an Aircraft carrier named Enterprise, and aircraft carriers have changed an awful lot since they started out. The point is that the Enterprise was a heavy cruiser.