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From: alan@allegra.UUCP (Alan S. Driscoll)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: RE:the chicken or the egg
Message-ID: <2570@allegra.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 2-Jul-84 23:15:23 EDT
Article-I.D.: allegra.2570
Posted: Mon Jul  2 23:15:23 1984
Date-Received: Wed, 4-Jul-84 03:17:36 EDT
References: <708@ihuxe.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill
Lines: 87

>> What if Trish had already decided (consciously or unconsciously)
>> that men are assholes?  What kind of men would she attract?  Why
>> would a sensitive, caring man become involved with her, unless he
>> had very low self-esteem?  Wouldn't she tend to attract losers?
>> Wouldn't her experiences all seem to confirm her original belief
>> about men?

> Hey... Slow down... Hold on a minute here...

I'm listening...

> Since when are people guilty before proven innocent.

Trish was innocent in my book until she announced, "I think most
men are your egotistical, chauvinist, insensitive, macho assholes."
Bigotry is not ok with me, and she just pleaded guilty...

> Shall I start making unfounded accusations against you?

I haven't made any derogatory comments about women or any other
group, have I?

> And have everyone jump on the bandwagon
> and agree? You'll have no recourse if no one has the guts to speak out in
> your behalf. You'll be publicly ostracized over the net.

What would have taken guts, in the case we're discussing, is for
some of the women on the net to show some integrity and publicly
reject Trish's remarks.  I assume most women disagreed with her,
but I was bothered by how quietly they did it.

> Anyway, back to the
> content of your article, you seem to think people make decisions on a subject
> matter in which they have absolutely no experience with. I'm sure Trish didn't
> one day just on whim decide men are not as sensitive/feeling/understanding as
> women. I assume most people are open-minded until they have reason to feel 
> otherwise.

So, if Trish believes it, she must have a good reason.  After all,
people are basically open-minded, right?  What about those people
who hate Blacks, or Jews, or gays?  Do you assume they have a good
reason?  Your whole argument is silly.

> On the otherhand it is obvious you aren't this way 
> because you brand Trish with no data. So it is understandable 
> you think other people are the same way. Once again I feel sorry
> for you though I know not why.

No data?  What the hell are you talking about?  I had the data
straight from the horses mouth.

> And lastly, I really dont think
> Trish is trying to attract men in the first place. She makes that perfectly
> clear.

Trish said she *chose* to be a lesbian *because* of her negative
feelings toward men.  This means she decided she didn't like men
*before* she decided to be a lesbian.  You have things mixed up
here, as you demonstrate in the rest of that paragraph:

> So she will be in a position to impartially judge a good cross section
> of men. All your comments are inapplicable. Why wouldn't any man be able to
> get acquainted with Trish just as a friend? Why do you assume any male/female
> interaction must lead to involvement or a relationship? A sensitive caring
> man would respect her choice and leave it at that. Just friends. A loser
> wouldn't bother with any kind of effort in the first place. What has
> self-esteem got to do with it? Your argument might work in reverse though.
> Maybe those guys with high self-esteem(ie macho types) just wont leave her
> alone and continually harrass her. Those that dont understand that there is
> such a thing as friendship. That would consistantly provide constant
> verification and support for her original decision. But then you would
> have to try and convince me that all other types of men will have nothing
> to do with her. And you just argued against that.

As I said, you are mixed up here.  Since Trish decided to be a
lesbian *after* deciding men are assholes, your argument doesn't
hold.  I was talking about what kind of experiences Trish might
have had with men before she came to this conclusion.  My point
was hypothetical (the article contained only questions), and it
isn't really important whether it's accurate in this particular
case.  I was simply trying to show how people's experiences may
*seem* to confirm their prejudices.

-- 

	Alan S. Driscoll
	AT&T Bell Laboratories