Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site gatech.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!philabs!cmcl2!seismo!hao!hplabs!sdcrdcf!sdcsvax!akgua!gatech!spaf From: spaf@gatech.UUCP (Gene Spafford) Newsgroups: net.singles Subject: Ok youse guys.... Message-ID: <8610@gatech.UUCP> Date: Thu, 5-Jul-84 21:42:04 EDT Article-I.D.: gatech.8610 Posted: Thu Jul 5 21:42:04 1984 Date-Received: Sat, 7-Jul-84 23:55:46 EDT Organization: The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech Lines: 275 Geez, I stop reading news for a couple of weeks and everybody goes off the deep end. Like, I've been trying to catch up on nearly 2800 news articles. (If you're interested in the absence, Hawaii was great, California was a lot of fun, and I passed my qualifying exams when I returned. The thesis proposal goes to the graduate office next week.) Anyhow, a lot of topics have been thrown about in the last 3 weeks. I thought I'd throw out some comments on all of the topics involved and see if I can't fan some more flames. This may not all flow together well, so if it doesn't make sense, don't blame me. Nice guys & kisses of death --------------------------- I've been labeled a "nice guy" by almost every woman I've ever known. Often, it has been in the context of "I wish I could find a guy as understanding and nice as you, Gene." No matter how hard I tried to let them know that I was available just like they wanted, nothing happened. I have since discovered two reasons why they avoided "nice guys" like me. First of all, they felt that they weren't good enough. I still find this hard to believe, but a couple of women have told me that they thought they didn't deserve someone as nice as me -- that I deserved better. HA! The second reason is a bit more subtle and involves the fact that all of their previous relationships had failed. Here I was, an understanding guy who wasn't the kind of jerk they kept encountering, and maybe I was available. But what if a relationship with me should change that and they lose contact with that "nice guy"? That fear kept some of them away. Sigh. I wouldn't trade being a nice guy for being a jerk. I enjoy what I am, and it has resulted in a number of friendships. Maybe it has resulted in some friendships never catching romantic fire, but I haven't ever viewed it as a "kiss of death." (Heck, the closest I've ever come to a kiss of death was when an old girlfriend once ate an entire jar of jalapeno peppers and got the hots. Whew!) I've had a couple of intense relationships that I greatly enjoyed. They weren't hurt by my being nice. My current SO and I started because she perceived me as a nice guy and needed someone to talk with; she discovered I can do more than talk. She thinks I'm a very nice guy. Then too, I may not be a "nice guy" in everyone's eyes. What matters is that I am happy with my own behavior. I've found that friends will get you through times of no lovers better than lovers will get you through times of no friends. If you'd rather be remembered as a "hunk" rather than a "nice guy" then I'm afraid none of my experience or comments will do you any good. You're also probably not often referred to as a nice guy if you think like that. Drugs ----- I don't use 'em. I don't need 'em. My view of life is warped enough. Just ask Chuq, or Lisa, or any of my other friends or correspondants. Unless of course you consider chocolate, single-malt scotch, apricots, strawberries, fusion jazz, fast cars, fortran, kittens (without duct tape, Gordon), science fiction, or hugs as drugs. Of course, perhaps I am a drug. I know at least one person who can't seem to get enough of me; luckily, I don't view that as drug abuse. Love is the drug. Shooting up is fun. Secretaries ----------- Some secretaries aren't completely with it (witness Secretary James Watt), but most have more on the ball than their bosses. I know of many who effectively run the place at which they work. Too bad they aren't compensated for their true value to the firm. I pity anyone who disparages his/her secretaries -- is s/he in for a surprise someday! I wouldn't hesitate to date a secretary. Or a cleaning person. Or a garbage collector. Or a programmer. Maybe society views them as second class, but what is important is how they view themselves and how you view them. A person's current job does not necessarily reflect his/her intellect or ability. It may just reflect choices or circumstances beyond her/his control. I mean, we live in a society where people with PhDs in literature and philosophy dig ditches, whilst brain-dead actors and evangelists hold high governement positions. Makes you think, doesn't it? Or does it? Pedestals --------- I put women up on pedestals. It makes it easier to look up their dresses. How can you have a reasonable relationship with someone whom you view as significantly better (or worse) than yourself? A strong relationship is one in which each partner contributes. You need to respect the other person, but you must also feel that you are able to contribute something other than acting as an inferior. Putting someone up on a pedestal removes from them the ability to make mistakes, and removes from you the right to make some choices. It also hurts the relationship a whole lot more when they eventually fall (off the pedestal). If you're going to put someone up on a pedestal, join them up there. Don't expect them to be significantly better or worse than you are. Just use the vantage point as a place where you can both look further, together. And don't get carried away and roll off. Facial Hair ----------- I happen to like beards. Unless it's on a woman. Unless, of course, it is my particular beard on a woman -- then we both can enjoy it. I've had a beard ever since I was a senior in high school. I'm your basic hirsute mutant. The beard is less trouble than shaving every day, and I think it looks much better than my bare face. I've never had any really serious involvement with a MOTAS without the beard. I don't know if that is significant. I do know that a couple of ladyfriends-past threatened to stop seeing me if I shaved off the beard. Of course, they stopped seeing me eventually anyhow, so I'm not sure how important my particular beard was in those cases. I keep my beard fairly short, well-washed, and soft. In the mornings, when I wake up, I never hear any complaints of "Stop that -- your beard scratches." Instead, it is usually more like "Hmmmm. That tickles." Wouldn't you really rather have a full beard than a day-old one? Now if only I could train it to migrate up to the bald spot.... Positions --------- This is net.singles. My favorite single position is on my stomach with the pillow over my head. My next favorite is under a tree in a meadow somewhere, or in a nice hammock. This should be accompanied by a tall glass of lemonade and a breeze. Is that what you were asking about? Dating someone with whom you work --------------------------------- Not generally the best of ideas. Familiarity breeds...all sorts of things. From the vantage point of someone who has dated former students, I can tell you that the pain of seeing an ex on a day-to-day basis is pretty nasty. If I had to be rational and civil too, I'd hate to think of how I'd react! (Judging from past experience -- badly.) Other netters have said significant things on this subject, so I won't say any more. Other than...if you're at GaTech and had ideas, don't believe any of this (assuming you're female, that is)! The majority of men are finks ----------------------------- Right. I agree. That's why it's nice to be a Vegan. Someone said that maybe only 1 out of 10000 guys is anywhere near acceptable. That means there are only about 10000 nice guys in the whole US. And judging by the comments, it appears that most of us are on this network! I really think the percentage is much better than that, although it certainly depends on the environment. "Nice" is a value judgement of the parties involved. Someone with unreasonably high standards or unrealistic expectations will find the majority of men to be unacceptable. Some abilty to adjust to another human being who has different needs and wants may lead you to the conclusion that the majority of men are okay. It takes luck, too. There are jerks. But there are many okay people in the world, too. Unfortunately, it is the jerks who are often the flashiest, so you notice them more. The nice ones are often the quiet ones who don't need to prove themselves to anyone but themselves. You just may be passing them by because they don't appear so spectacular. In fact, you may not notice them at all. Which leads us to: Beautiful people and jerks & Insecurity --------------------------------------- Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Sometimes it is in the other body parts, and that's the kind I notice. It is also the kind that many other people notice. I find panthers beautiful, I find diamonds beautiful, and I find sunsets over the ocean beautiful. However, I wouldn't want to take a panther to a movie. Diamonds are lousy conversationalists, and a sunset doesn't do much good when you're alone and horny on a Friday night. There's a moral in there somewhere, but I forgot what it was. If people react favorably to you mostly because of your looks, don't you think you would be a bit insecure, both about the strength of your other talents, and about what happens when your beauty begins to fade with time? Further, overly-beautiful people don't have the opportunity to excercise their other talents as much as the rest of us do. Why should a beautiful (wo)man polish his/her skills at oratory and persuasion if her/his looks get his/her everything s/he wants? I think that is one reason why it is claimed that beautiful (wo)men aren't as bright as the rest. But the most important reason has to do with the simple fact that there are very few unnatractive people. EVERYONE is attractive to some degree or another. However, the vain ones, the ones with idle time and no big challenges, the ones with money to toss away, those are the ones who spend their time polishing and shaping themselves into more than average. Those are not the driven ones, the ones burning with dreams and ideas, the ones for whom there are not enough hours in a day to explore and discover. Instead, they tan at the beach and outfit themselves with the latest in trendy fashion. No wonder they stand out. And that's also why some of them hang around with jerks -- it emphasizes their attractiveness, by comparison. Maybe not every "hunk" or "dish" is like that, but many are. Maybe it is just a personal view, but I find very, very few people unattractive. Most of the people I encounter from day to day are pursuing goals and dreams, exercising their minds, pursuing their futures. They all are more than they appear -- which is another good reason not to be attracted by looks alone. On the other hand, beauty can be a curse. I know many very intelligent and beautiful women who are often dismissed as just another "dumb" blonde. Or people who assume that someone got their job because of "favors" to the boss. Judging anything based on appearances is not the best of all ideas, unless you enjoy veneer and surprises. I prefer women who use little or no makeup, who wear simple styles. A man or woman who is sure of himself/herself is more attractive than an insecure someone coiffed and arrayed in the latest fashions. Still, I appreciate beauty in the way that I appreciate a fine painting. My head will be turned and I will notice a striking speciman, just as I would notice a beautiful flower. But without knowing more, I wouldn't want to possess them -- some of the prettiest flowers are poisonous. That's just nature's way of saying, "Ha! Got ya again, sucker!" Gays ---- To the homophobes who have been venting their spleens on the net: Think back to some time in your youth (or last weekend) when you were masturbating. I'm sure you did -- we all have now and again (and again). That was a member of the same sex who was playing with your genitalia. Felt good, huh? Gee, maybe you're a bit...odd? I mean, that wasn't a member of the opposite sex, was it? What is the opposite sex? I happen to find women sexually intriguing. Some human beings I know also find women exciting. They also find sheep, dogs, ladies underwear, leather fringe, watermelons, guns, fast cars, and certain battery operated appliances sexually exciting. I don't consider them to be quite the same as myself, sexual-identity wise. Their current plumbing doesn't enter into that determination. If they decide that men are sexually exciting, fine. If their interest set intersects mine in some mutually agreeable manner, if they're intelligent and witty, and if they're free Saturday night, even better. Otherwise, as long as they don't try to push their orientation on me, I don't care. Your particular fears of others' sexual preferences are part of your own identity. Pushing to declare something unnatural or evil is trying to push your own sexual preferences on the rest of us. If you'll pardon the phrase, bugger off. Jeff S. ------- Thanks for livening up the net. Next time, could you wait until after I return from any extended trip? Your openness and willingness to spill your heart and mind on the net have either restored my faith in humanity, or increased my respect for the AI faction at Purdue. The rest of you --------------- Love each other. We're all we've got. One basic rule of thumb -- don't expect more from anyone else than you'd expect of yourself. And don't hassle them if they fall occasionally short of your expectations. Instead, reach down from your lofty perch and offer your hand. -- Off the Wall of Gene Spafford The Clouds Project, School of ICS, Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 Phone: (404) 894-6169, (404) 894-6170 [messages] CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf%GATech.CSNet @ CSNet-Relay.ARPA uucp: ...!{akgua,allegra,hplabs,ihnp4,masscomp,ut-ngp}!gatech!spaf ...!{rlgvax,sb1,uf-cgrl,unmvax,ut-sally}!gatech!spaf