Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site opus.UUCP Path: utzoo!linus!decvax!genrad!wjh12!harvard!seismo!hao!cires!nbires!opus!rcd From: rcd@opus.UUCP (Dick Dunn) Newsgroups: net.singles Subject: Re: Experiential Processes Message-ID: <600@opus.UUCP> Date: Mon, 9-Jul-84 03:59:05 EDT Article-I.D.: opus.600 Posted: Mon Jul 9 03:59:05 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 12-Jul-84 01:24:56 EDT References: <2975@tektronix.UUCP> Organization: NBI, Boulder Lines: 73 I think I want to take a position squarely in the middle of this one... > >=ism!judy (?); >=tektronix!moiram > > EST and many other "hip" therapies are DANGEROUS! They can cause serious > > damage to the psyche and personality... They try to > > force down defense mechanisms it took the person years to build... > >I don't think your opinion is supported by statistics. Hundreds of thousands >of people have been through the experiences offered by est, Lifespring, and >the smaller offshoots. If it was really as *DANGEROUS* as you seem to think, >the public outcry would be incredible... Some of the popular therapies are certainly counterproductive. I think that the original point is that if you screw up even 1% of the people coming in, it may be dangerous, particularly if the danger could be avoided. In the course of meeting friends of my SO about 18 months ago, we spent an evening with one particular couple. Their behavior was uniformly arrogant, obnoxious in a particular way that fit a stereotype of false self- assurance. I'm not really sharp on analyzing behavior, but it really stood out - this was exactly what people had described as "ESThole" behavior. I later asked my SO, and she confirmed that they were both EST enthusiasts. I'd like to hope that these people weren't helped by EST. However, it's clear that the way they acted, they're not about to put up with any suggestion that they aren't perfectly normal and capable. In any case, it ought to be clear if you think about it for a bit that you can't count on "public outcry" to be accurate, either positively (outcry indicates danger) or particularly negatively (no outcry indicates no danger). > > But if you force a person to break into an area they are not emotionally > > equipped to face, you are doing that person damage. > >Once again, nobody is forced to do anything. Nobody is forced to look at any- >thing they don't want to... The problem here seems to be lack of agreement on meaning of "force". Peer pressure is a powerful thing. It IS force in many situations. >Besides, what you are >suggesting is logistically absurd. There are lots of participants in the >room. I suggest that it would take a 1:1 kind of situation to really *force* >a person to confront something they don't want to... Not at all. It takes technique and a suggestible person. The fact that you've gotten someone to sign up for a session indicates a certain amount of suggestibility. Extracting money from people increases pressure - they won't want to waste the money, nor want to feel like a fool for having spent it on something famous. You've got half the battle won before you start - IF you're trying. > > Groups like this DO use brain washing techniques. And if you think > > you can't be brain washed spend some time with some ex-cult members. > >The analogy between these experiential processes and cults has more >holes than swiss cheese. But you don't have to make it a cult to use some of the same techniques that cults use. You have to be a little bit stupid to start a self-help technique organization that LOOKS like a cult unless you really want the negative image. >...2. Ex-cult members, when they have been de-programmed, see the error > of their ways...Most EP participants do not regret the time or money > invested in the EP. I wish there were some way to examine this. I suspect that many participants eventually come to feel that they wasted some time, but not a lot, and that most of the money was wasted - but how many feel this way probably depends a lot on the group. Most of the (small number of) people I've talked to about EST, for example, feel that they got something out of it - but mostly what they learned was how people get manipulated, because they felt manipulated by the training and aren't having any more of it. -- Dick Dunn {hao,ucbvax,allegra}!nbires!rcd (303)444-5710 x3086 ...Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile.