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From: keduh@hogpd.UUCP (D.HUDEK)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re : Clearing it all up
Message-ID: <360@hogpd.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 13-Jul-84 14:43:17 EDT
Article-I.D.: hogpd.360
Posted: Fri Jul 13 14:43:17 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 14-Jul-84 01:45:34 EDT
Lines: 164

<<||>>

Hey, hey..... things are looking up! I guess things aren't so bad after
all. In a recent posting, Trish listed a series of faults that she
perceived men to have.... ones that should be cleared up before
heterosexual women's relationships with men could be happy and
fulfilling [ of course, this is a paraphrase and is subject to
distortion thereby... ] Anyway, I would like to share my
experience with whomever cares to read this garbage [ :-) ] and
offer the opinion that that magical day is today !! [ or maybe
just a few days away  :-)  ]. Let's look at the points one by
one. Remember, I'm speaking from my own experiences as a "straight"
male as well as from my observations of others' relationships.
The stuff preceded with a ">" is from Trish's article.....


>
>As a final opinion of men, I'd like to say that until the day the average
>everyday man:
>
>     1. Dates a woman because he really likes her instead of wanting to get
>        into her pants.

OK, you got it !  I do this myself and I have observed others doing the
same [ OK, I'm not a mind reader.... but I do talk to people and 
form opinions....  :-)  ]  I've gone out with gals [whoops, my Texan is
coming through.... I mean women] just for the fun of thier
company....  to have someone to do things with. I don't think
that it's all that uncommon.  [As an aside, many times people date for
both reasons ("liking" and "romance"), must they be mutually exclusive ??
I know that I enjoy dates where both aspects are present much more
than dates that are just "for fun". (also... "romance" meaning more
than simply "getting in her pants") ]

>     2. Treats a woman with respect.

OK so far.

>     3. Realizes that just because he's pleased (sexually), doesn't mean that
>        his partner is pleased (and does something about it).

We're doing fine so far. This trait may be more recent however (i.e.,
the pepsi generation :-) ), but I wouldn't state that as a fact by
any means --- pure speculation. All the guys I know are concerned that
their partner has a "good time" :-) . [Let me clarify that to mean
all the guys I know well enough to have ever discussed something
like this with, along with assumptions about the rest that I don't know
quite that well ----- it's not all that common a topic of conversation,
y'know  :-) ]

>     4. Stops talking about his SO around his friends like she's a burden.

I've only seen this happen when a relationship is "on the rocks" and about
to go belly up in the near future, hence, I think that it's atypical
of normal, healthy relationships...... soooo, score another one.

>     5. Decides that macho is not the only feelings he can have.

A-OK.

>     6. Starts admitting to his friends that he is sensitive and stops acting
>        like he's so tough.

Still doing fine, I think, although I would like to qualify that by
saying that many people change over time and in different
situations. There are times and places to be tough as well as times
and places to be tender and sensitive.

>     7. Stops talking about "losing his freedom".

I've only heard this sort of thing mentioned in a joking manner to
someone who was about to be married. To my mind, that is not significant,
so I'm tempted to claim that point #7 has been resolved.


>     8. Stops thinking that he has the right to have an affair, because that's
>        part of being a man. (by the way, any woman who believes that shit and
>        puts up with it is STUPID. period)

I haven't met ANY man who thought he had a right to have an affair.
Obviously, someone with that attitude doesn't really have much of a
chance at having any sort of a meaningful relationship  [oh god,
these phrases make me sound like an air-head..... oh well, maybe I am :-) ]
This attitude may have been prevalent in the past, but I have
yet to observe it in either myself or in any of my friends....
so I claim point #8 is taken care of.

>     9. Stops thinking that he has to have the prettiest woman in the place,
>        even though he looks like a total slob.

Most [whoa!! I'm not going to fall into that trap :-) ], Let me say...
a certain percentage (that I would guess to be rather high) of people
like to be with persons they find attractive in some way. I am this 
way myself a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean I want to "have"
[what does that mean, ownership ??? how can you own another person? ]
the most beautiful woman in the place. That attitude, along with point 10,
would seem to belong to someone who is terribly insecure and trying
to prove something. Since I haven't seen that behavior since Freshman
year in college [ and by men, I assume we are discussing adults ], I
am happy to inform you that the day has come when points 9 and 10
are history.  :-)

>    10. Doesn't parade his pretty SO around like she's an object.
see above

>    11. Can admit that being sensitive, warm and caring is just part of human
>        nature, and not a part of being feminine only.

No problems here.

>    12. Will stop saying that women are hard to understand and fickle.

This one is a toughy. Personally, I do not claim to understand women
fully, and I don't know that I ever will. I think that this is a rather
common phenomena, however. I don't know of anyone who feels omnipotent
when it comes to the opposite sex. I don't think that complete understanding
is a pre-req. to happiness, however, so I dispute the validity of
this point.  [as an aside, I understand that the term "fickle" is
loaded with negative connotations, so I would strike the last two
words of point #12 ]

>    13. Will stop thinking that a woman owes him just because he spent alot
>        of money on a date.

Hmmm... this one hits close to home. It depends on what you mean
by "owes". If you mean sex, then I claim that it's not a common attitude
in myself or in my friends. [ if you have to pay for sex, there
must be something wrong with you  <---- opinion! ] I mean, sex should
be pleasurable for both parties, not just one party performing a service
for the other!!  I think sex is a seperate issue.
If we exclude sex from the discussion of "owes", then
I think it may be a common attitude, and not at all a difficult one
to understand.  It hinges on feelings of being taken advantage of,
and concerns issues of ability to pay. If I go out with a woman
who makes more money than I do, why should I always pay ?
Going "dutch" or alternating who takes whom out seems much more
equitable. On the face of it, this sounds very mercenary, but I know
several couples who act this way and it seems to work out very well.
That way, neither side feels taken advantage of.

>    14. Will stop saying that a woman is a "tease" just because he can't con- 
>        trol his glands.
>
>Women will have a hell of a hard time being happy, and they will probably have
>to settle for less and deal with it from there.
>

This last point I view simply as a slam against men, and, not knowing
what context it is in [ the woman brings the man just to the point of
orgasm and then stops to watch TV..... and the man should just control
his glands ??  :-)  :-) ], I will not attempt to respond to it.

Taken as a whole, I think most of the perceived faults listed are
no longer true.  BIG CAVEAT ---> My experience [from which I draw
such conclusions] is with generally college educated, upwardly
mobile young professionals  [YUPpies ??]. I guess if you hang around
with that sort of people, then the mythical magical day of
peace, love, and understanding [ :-) ] is at hand.  If other categories
of men do not fulfill these expectations, do not complain to those
who do   :-)   :-)    [We're by no means perfect, but we're not
too bad either....  :-)  ]


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