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From: neal@denelcor.UUCP (Neal Weidenhofer)
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Re: Americans
Message-ID: <527@denelcor.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 14-Aug-84 21:25:29 EDT
Article-I.D.: denelcor.527
Posted: Tue Aug 14 21:25:29 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 16-Aug-84 02:46:22 EDT
References: <371@oddjob.UChicago.UUCP>
Organization: Denelcor, Aurora, CO
Lines: 66

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>3. Americans put far more emphasis on "the right of the individual" than the
>   "societal good". c.f. net.abortion, net.gun_control, net.dirty_cities, etc.

	This, to me, is a rather basic point of philosophy.  I believe
that human beings are MORE IMPORTANT than ("logically prior to", if you
will) societies -- that societies exist to serve the needs and enhance
the well-being of the individuals in them rather than the other way
around.  I think and I think most Americans think that the writers of our
Declaration of Independence had the right idea when they said "... and to
secure these rights, governments are instituted ..."

>   (I can't believe how many people have said something like,"Well, at least 
>   *here* you have the right to say what you are saying. Hey, wake up! I have
>   this same right in dozens of countries, not just yours.)

	There are also a number of countries where you don't have that
right.  Most commonly (subject to quibbles similar to your opening
paragraph) I have heard those words in response to a statement praising
one of the countries where you don't or its ideals.

>4. Americans are far more "nationalistic or patriotic" (I say jingoistic) than
>   any other country. (I have never heard anyone in another country being 
>   attacked as "un-<fill in the country>". It is an American concept.) 
>5. Americans believe that they live in the best country in the world; the most
>   free, the most democratic, the fairest.

	Well, "If you've got it, flaunt it." :-)
	
	Like most people, we "blow hot and cold" in this regard.  As I see
it, we've just passed a couple of decades of feeling the exact opposite
and now the pendulum is swinging the other way.  "Chauvinism" and its
derivatives come from a Frenchman's name.

>7. Americans are very anti-intellectual; Americans read less than anyone else.
>   (Well, that explains (6): (5) is based on faith and propaganda, 
>   not knowledge.)

	Do you expect me (us) to just take your word on that one?  Let's
see some kind of substantiation.

>If you want to flame me, let's have some intelligent arguments. (Actually, I
>welcome flames saying "If you don't like it, leave". They just support (4), 
>(5), (6) and (7).)

	I think its a pity that many, if not most, people forget that
"America, Love it or Leave it" is also a RIGHT that we have in this
country that people in some other countries don't have.  I doubt that it's
a coincidence that the set of countries that don't respect this right and
the set of countries that don't allow free speech have a large
intersection.

>Most people on the net are middle class; most people in the States are
>working class.

	One of the things that I think IS great about America is that,
for the most part, these are the same class.

>					David London
>					..!ihnp4!oddjob!london

			Regards,
				Neal Weidenhofer
"The law is for protection	Denelcor, Inc.
	of the people"		<hao|csu-cs|brl-bmd>!denelcor!neal