Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP
Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 (Denver Mods 4/2/84) 6/24/83; site drutx.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!mgnetp!ihnp4!drutx!plw
From: plw@drutx.UUCP (KerrPL)
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: RE: question to Rich (LONG)
Message-ID: <969@drutx.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 23-Aug-84 17:07:36 EDT
Article-I.D.: drutx.969
Posted: Thu Aug 23 17:07:36 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 25-Aug-84 05:36:18 EDT
Organization: AT&T Information Systems Laboratories, Denver
Lines: 173

[]
Rich,
>(By the way, Patty, since you did
>achieve great results, please share your methods with us.  Isn't that what
>this newsgroup is supposed to be for?)
   I never did plan not to tell anyone how we handled this. In fact I
have replied to others who did ask.

>I know more kids like this than I care to count (mostly playmates of my
>ex-SO's son).  In every case, their behavior problems were rooted in a
>negligent home upbringing, where parents were either more concerned with
>"making their kids behave" (apparently so it wouldn't cause THEM problems)
>than with *raising* them, or not concerned at all.
   I hope your "every case" applied to your step-son's friends, and not
all children who acts up once in a while. If it is a case of "All,"
then it is an assumption that shouldn't be made. Maybe I ought to have
laid some background. I was divorced when Heather was 4, she is now 12.
Her father left and never returned after the divorce. She had more time
from me then some employed (or even unemployed) parents give. Leader in
the girl scouts for three years. Any one who has been a leader knows what
it is like to try to get volunteers for a project. Many times it meant
taking the girls by myself. When I talked about quitting, once, Heather
asked me to stay. We both enjoyed it enough that my quitting didn't happen.
In time I had to so I could attend night classes, that was after three
years. Taking vacation day's for her school field days. Play cards in the
evening. We both enjoy going up to the mountains for the week-end. Rich,
DO NOT call a parent neglective, when that parent knows what it is like to
be abused. Heather has often made comments of "I'm glad you are my mother
and not so and so. They [hit, scream, never home, say 'No, because I say
so']" Take your pick out of any of them. I am just putting you in the 
right frame of mind on our home life.
   Heather's problems came with every thing being new. New house, new
school, and Mom is engaged to be married. 
  Heather is allowed to elect her events. One of her friends did turn
out to be a mistake. Heather even admitted to me she was wrong to
chose this girl. She is allowed to make her mistakes, and is allowed
to learn through experience. I never been one to say "Listen to me. I am
wiser. Do it because I say so." Kids never learn by just listening. They
have to figure it out themselves. Anyway, Heather didn't want to go to
school, she "hated her teacher." She was showing no respect for anyone or
anything. Getting into fist fights. Winning some and thinking she was being
cool. At first I asked why she feels she has to have this violent behavior?
Answers were "I was mad. She started it. All the kids fight at school" 
I warned her if she must fight, it was not allowed on school grounds. I
told her that I felt fighting and hitting is a waste of time, that it
belittles her. But if she insists there will be a day she will meet
a real challenge. Her challenge turned out to be her friend I mentioned
earlier. As all big mouths get, there is a day they have to back up the
big mouth. Heather didn't know how to handle it. She was afraid to fight
this time. Now she was getting into people who knew how to fight. Being
called chicken by the school because she couldn't back her big mouth.
I explained that you can not walk away from your own actions. You have to
face it one way or another. She chose to protect her pride and name and
face this girl. With one request of me. To be there for her. Rich, it was
her choice. Either way she had to go back to school without the name
calling.  Heather fought, got a good black eye from it and sore rib (that
was when Heather gave up. A knee to the belly was enough for her.) Heather
announced to the group that was around them, that it was over, she lost
the fight but gained her self respect again. No one can call her chicken.
Rough way to learn, but it was her lesson. I was there to back her up on
her request. Later she had a hug for me for being there. That she did chose
some wrong friends. That fighting and violence solves nothing. I have told
her that for years. She knows how I feel on violence.
   School was also a problem at this time. She didn't care. At first
it was all the "Why's", Don't like school, etc. Come to find out she didn't
like her teacher. I told her that it was only this one year and he would be
out of her life. That she ought to try for her grades out of her own
self-respect. I do make mistakes, (Will get into more facts later)
but I didn't realize that this teacher brought down her self-esteem. She
just flat didn't care. If Heather would get an F, he would announce it to
the class; If she got a C or better nothing was said. Her attitude was "He
doesn't care so why should I?" The second quarter, yes Rich, I did bring in
a school counselor. (I am NOT perfect and I couldn't figure out what
to do. To think that anyone is perfect with ALL answers is a fool.)
This teacher was a jerk. Heather was not the only student having problems
with him. When I caught him in lies, argued with him that kids do have
RIGHTS, Yes..Rich, rights, he informed me that kids don't have these rights
and is not an adults equal. The meeting ended with that. I felt that was
one of the core problems and that Heather ought to be pulled from his
class. (Found out later that 2 other parents pulled their kids out after
Heather)
   Heather was given the credit that the teacher was the major part of the 
problem, and now she would have to prove herself to the new teacher. (He
was informed by the old teacher to watch out for Heather. She is a trouble
maker) By the end of the year her grades, self-esteem, and action improved
greatly. Her new teacher had no problems with her. She actually enjoyed
school again.
   As far as the engagement went. She tried with all the excuses
of "Mom, it has always been just me and you." Fine is all I said. Thought
for awhile and then told her that at age 18 she will have to stay with me.
Never move out. Never get married. Her response  was "That is no FAIR"--My
response "Exactly, how can you ask it of me when I have no right to ask it
of you?" Heather was afraid I would be taken away from her. She had
problems trying to allow another "Dad" in her life. He will take off again.
She loved him as a person, but as long as the person would stay out of the
home life, than all will be fine. Love and patience took care of this. She
needed time to realize that "this person" can add and not take away from
her life. We had all the talks about "Do I have to call him Dad? No,
Heather that is your choice. Will I have to be adopted? No, Heather,
that is your choice. He will be a step parent though. To be respected
as a parent." We have been married two months now. She had called us "My
Mom and Dad" when referring to us as a couple, and "Dad" when just talking
about him alone. She is decided on adoption now.

>You ask what I would have done.  I could say "I probably would have raised her
>better so that she would be able to think for herself and know what's she
>doing", but I won't.  I'll assume that you are among those parents who do
>make an effort and do care, though statistically I may not have reason to do
>so.  The formative years in a child's life are crucial in determining later
>personality, because kids literally suck in everything they see around them,
>and sometimes incorporate it into their individuality.  Reinforcing positive
>behaviors (like inquisitiveness, socialization, proper caution) and striking
>the right balance between them during this time is crucial to the development
>of the child.  Once behaviors like that are cast, it is very difficult to
>undo them.  
>If you've set the stage
>so that you can talk rationally to your child (children are no less rational
>than adults), then you have laid the groundwork.  
   In agreement!!! Heather received hugs, kisses, and "Good Girl" as
a baby and toddler. She has been showed all the these. Two points
to your "Reinforcing positive behaviors" 1. When they are doing something
that a parent doesn't approve of, let them know it is their actions
you are disapproving on. The child is not BAD. You (parent), as a person
won't tolerate their actions. Just as a child has a right to say they won't
tolerate beatings and other abusive actions. 2. Let that kid know that no
parent is perfect. Parents are human and makes mistakes. When the parent
has mistakingly wronged, apologize to the child.
>If you teach a child to
>appreciate learning, there's no way that child is going to dislike school;
>the child will WANT to learn.  
   There is no way that child is going to DISLIKE school? Good luck, Rich,
on your own child. Easier said than done sometimes.

>If you teach a child the reasons for not
>behaving in anti-social fashion, they won't do so; the child will understand
>the consequences of such actions.  
   Sometimes they have to learn on their own experiences. Heather has 
learned in early years not to scream out in public places, to respect
a person's feelings and belongings, all that I think that any good
parent would teach. She had to learn the fighting by herself I guess. I,
as her parent, tried to explain fighting to her. She had to learn that one
by herself. To grow to be her own independent person on fighting. She has
learned. She knows the saying "It takes a better person to walk away from a
fight." As far as it goes with the teacher problem, she had to find out in
life that there are jerks out there. People who place themselves higher
than they can ever place any one else.

>If you've let the child know the ground
>rules regarding proper behavior, infractions, and fair punishment, rarely
>will you witness those rules being broken, and even more rarely will those
>rare infractions be malicious.  
   Root word in the paragraph is RARELY. I feel that Heather and I have
achieved this. She only had the actions that I described for about 18
weeks. Not bad for her being 12, or at 11 then.

>You ask what I'd have done.  I'd have been sure
>I'd laid that groundwork.  If I hadn't, I'd be in trouble, and I might have to
>employ the last resorts I've described.
   Rich, so it sounds like I have laid the groundwork.  I have not
neglected my child at all. She has always had what is a parents responsi-
bility to give their children. That is food, shelter, clothes, love, under-
standing, patience, and a way to form her own self. You are talking to a
person who feels a child needs all these things. Then to give more
depending of what they need at the time. She does have the makings of being
her own adult. She is a wise person, but fell this one time. Rich has her
out as being a hoodlum from a neglectful parent. Some how this sounds like
her old teacher, and was later proven wrong by Heather, the school
counselor, the principal, and me. We all had FAITH in her. Of
all that I mentioned earlier, a person can give another faith and
support. Not to attack and say "I am wiser. I know"

			Patty Kerr
			drutx!plw