Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site oddjob.UChicago.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!mhuxl!houxm!ihnp4!gargoyle!oddjob!garret From: garret@oddjob.UChicago.UUCP (Trisha O Tuama) Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Irish History -- Long Article Message-ID: <419@oddjob.UChicago.UUCP> Date: Mon, 3-Sep-84 00:09:46 EDT Article-I.D.: oddjob.419 Posted: Mon Sep 3 00:09:46 1984 Date-Received: Wed, 29-Aug-84 00:43:48 EDT Organization: U. Chicago: Astronomy & Astrophysics Lines: 218 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! jmm, you ignorant celtic pond scum! You know, for awhile I didn't know which I found more ridiculous: your inept attempts to blur and distort Irish history, or your babbling on about your female relatives. I've come to the conclusion that your mis- conceptions about Irish statesmen and your slurs on the British government are actually worse; of course, your female relatives would undoubtedly disagree. For those of you who care (and I realize many of you don't, but kindly don't send me mail telling me so), I have divided this correspondence up into three parts: > > my original comments **as paraphrased by jmm** > jmm's reply my reply ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Trisha says, > > No, I have nothing against Catholics > Gee, you could have fooled me! I guess the thing that gave me that > impression was your remark about being the "founding member of the society > to keep Papist influence out of Ulster." Then there was also the fact that > nobody on the net had mentioned religion up to that point. It just goes to > show you how wrong a guy can be :-). That's ROYAL Society, jmm. So what if no one had mentioned religion up to that point. Big fucking deal. Is there something wrong with introducing a new topic or is the intelligence needed to comprehend of multiple topics too much for you? If that's so, please let me know and I'll go slower and use shorter words. Anyway, how can you talk about Northern Ireland without discussing religion? Besides, if you think real hard you'll remember that YOUR original comments on this subject were in response to David London's flame about ABC's broad- casting of the Olympics. You immediately jumped in with all that drivel about how awful the English are just look what they did to the Irish -- and that certainly had NOTHING to do with sports broadcasting. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I became a member of the Church on Holy Saturday, 1951, made my First > >Communion six years later, and became a Soldier of Christ while in the third > >grade at St. Mary's Elementary School in downtown Albuquerque. > Now that you've said that I've got the warm fuzzies all over about > your motivations. This certainly qualifies you to be an instant expert on > anything relating to the Catholic Church or Ireland :-). What on earth are you talking about? Did you leave out a sentence or are you still learning how to punctuate? Are you capable of coherent thought, jmm? I don't have the warm fuzzies (whatever that is) all over anything; I was merely making the point that while I am a lapsed-Catholic, I was nevertheless, brought up in the Church; my comments on Catholicism stem, therefore, from healthly skepticism, and not from religious bigotry. Your line about my being an "instant expert" sounds like the kind of argument my eight-year-old nephew would use. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What I don't like is the interfamily relation between Church and > > State that exists in Eire today. > The "interfamily relation between Church and State" is not as strong > in Ireland as it is in England where the reigning British monarch is also the > head of the Anglican Church. In effect Queen Elizabeth is the female pope of > the Anglican Church. She outranks the Archbishop of Canterbury in the Anglican > Church and her horse stud farms in America are untaxable because they are > considered property of the Anglican Church. Jesus, Mary and Joseph, who cares about the "interfamily relationship" between England and the Anglican Church? Talk about introducing irrelevant topics. Pretty soon you'll be off ranting about Princess Anne's interfamily relationship with her horses. Then you'll probably get started on your female relatives again. Please spare us! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The Church-state relationship in Ireland did not prevent Liam Cosgrave > (a protestant) from becoming the first President of Ireland in 1922 when he > was also the first man to officially raise the Irish flag over the new > government's offices. The facts, jack: William Thomas Cosgrave was born in Dublin in 1880 and educated at a Christian Brothers school; the latter are legendary bastions of staunch, conservative Catholic learning. In 1922 Cosgrove became prime minister of the Irish Free State. The Free State was considered a dominion and had the same constitutional status within the British Commonwealth as had Australia or Canada; all members of the Dail were required to take an oath of allegiance to the British crown. The office of Uachtaran na h'Eireann (president) was not created until the 1937 Constitution was passed; the first President of Eire was Dr. Douglas Hyde (founder of the Gaelic League). ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > By the way, Ireland hasn't been called "Eire" for about three decades. > Some time ago the country renounced all ties of political dependency to England > and since that time it has officially been named the Republic of Ireland. I > think it was after that "communist" Eamon De Valera got into office. But > that's all right, Trisha, I know how the word "Republic" sticks in some > people's throats. More facts: "Ireland" was officially known as "Eire" from 1937 (when the new Constitution was enacted) until 1949 (when the country severed all ties with the British Commonwealth). The official designation after 1949 was "Poblacht na h'Eireann." "Eire" is still used on Irish passports, postmarks, birth certificates, and other official records. If you want proof, send me your address and I'll send you photocopies of the same. Eamon de Valera first "got into office" in 1918 when, as head of Sinn Fein, he was elected to the British Parliament. In 1919 he was elected president of the non-existent Irish Republic by a handful of Sinn Fein members of the Dail Eireann. Between October and December, 1921, the Dail held treaty negotiations with Britain to set up the Irish Free State; when the Dail approved the treaty, de Valera resigned his office as president of the Dail. In June 1922, the Irish people voted to approve the treaty by a decisive margin; the Civil War started 12 days later. De Valera continued to be elected to the Dail, but declined, along with other members of Sinn Fein, to take his seat until 1927, when he entered the Dail as head of Fianna Fail and leader of the opposition party. He became the prime minister in 1932 (this office was later changed to Taoiseach). Eamon de Valera was never a Communist. The Irish Republican Army (which supported de Valera) was thought to be under Communist influence in the 1930's (an association it has maintained to this day). In 1939 de Valera outlawed the IRA for acts of terrorism. It's okay, jmm, I realize that having to face up to historical facts sticks in some people's throats. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> I have, therefore, great deal of sympathy for the Protestants of Northern >> Ireland, especially as the majority of that country's population favors >> the British Parliament to the Irish Dail. > Well, of course, the original boundaries of Northern Ireland were > drawn to enclose the largest area of land with a loyalist majority. But > things have slipped a little since then. It seems that the birth rate among > nationalist families is much higher than among loyalist families and there > are always more nationalist youths in the schools than loyalist youths. It > causes the government some terrific headaches trying to figure out more ways > to drive nationalist youths out of Northern Ireland. Obviously, the original boundaries of Northern Ireland were set up to include the area with the most Irish Protestants. That was the whole idea behind the partition in the first place: to maintain a separate geographic section of the country for those persons who wanted to remain a part of Great Britain. My husband wants to know where all those "nationalist youths" have gone. Are you saying that the English government routinely picks up "youths" and flies them off to Portugal, say, or Bangkok? Mars, perhaps? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > For 62 years they've tried unemployment, death threats, denial of > housing, arrests, murders, beatings, rape, imprisonment and mutilation. But > nothing seems to work completely. Funny, this sounds just like that terrorist group known as the Irish Republican Army..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > The nationalist population keeps on gaining. > The real population figures are a tightly guarded government secret. Some > loyalists are so alarmed that they've demanded a special law be passed that > would require a 75% nationalist majority to change the government. Not that > it would make any difference since there was an 80% nationalist majority > throughout Ireland who actually voted for independence in the general > elections shortly after the uprising of 1916. Come on, jmm, facts, we need facts. How do you know the "real" population figures are a "tightly guarded government secret"? When were you ever a part of the English government? God only knows for sure to what "general elections" you are referring; in 1922 the electorate in the south voted overwhelmingly to accept the treaty making Ireland a dominion of Britain -- in other words, the republicans lost and the Civil War started. The north has always voted to stay with Great Britain. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The British government simply declared all the nationalist > representatives to be outlaws and declared war on the nationalist people. > A simple solution to a complex problem. What ARE you talking about? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- gee, I always knew that masters in history would pay off! Trisha O Tuama Defender of the Faith and Ill-Disposed to Persons of Little Intelligence