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Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!jmm
From: jmm@bonnie.UUCP (Joe Mcghee)
Newsgroups: net.flame
Subject: Irish History Corrected: Part 1: more to follow
Message-ID: <203@bonnie.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 31-Aug-84 10:50:18 EDT
Article-I.D.: bonnie.203
Posted: Fri Aug 31 10:50:18 1984
Date-Received: Sat, 1-Sep-84 09:19:53 EDT
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Trisha says,

> jmm, you ignorant celtic pond scum!  
>
> You know, for awhile I didn't know which I found more ridiculous: your
> inept attempts to blur and distort Irish history, or your babbling on
> about your female relatives. I've come to the conclusion that your mis-
> conceptions about Irish statesmen and your slurs on the British government
> are actually worse; of course, your female relatives would undoubtedly
> disagree.

	My, my, we certainly are in a royal snit today! Was it something
I said? You've obviously studied at the Margaret Thatcher school of
diplomacy. Or was it the Ian Paisley Institute for Invective?

> I have divided this correspondence up into three parts:  > >  my original
> comments **as paraphrased by jmm**
>                      >    jmm's reply
>                           my reply

	I've paraphrased none of your words. They were copied directly off
the net. I've only reformatted them in order to insert my responses. All the
words are yours.

> Anyway, how can you talk about Northern Ireland without discussing religion?

	I do it all the time, Trisha. Those who support foreign domination
by England are called loyalists. Those who support independence, human rights,
and territorial integrity are called nationalists. Otherwise you have an
awful time classifying all those Irish and English Protestants who have
struggled to free Ireland from English oppression, such as:

Theobald Wolfe Tone	Jonathan Swift		Robert Emmett
Charles Stewart Parnell	George Bernard Shaw	James Joyce
Countess Markiewicz	Erskine Childers	Mary Spring-Rice
Dr. Douglas Hyde	Ronald Bunting		Rose Dugdale

to name just a few off the top of my head. These people could all be described
as Irish nationalists or republicans. None of them, to my knowledge, were/are
Catholic.
 
> Besides, if you think real hard you'll remember that YOUR original comments
> on this subject were in response to David London's flame about ABC's broad-
> casting of the Olympics.  You immediately jumped in with all that drivel
> about how awful the English are just look what they did to the Irish -- and
> that certainly had NOTHING to do with sports broadcasting.

	If you think real hard, Trisha, you'll remember that I replied to
an article titled "Americans" in which Dave London departed from his original
attack on sportscasters to attack Americans in general in which he boasted
that many countries he'd lived in had all the rights Americans enjoy without
the same display of pride Americans show. I merely questioned the liberties
in one of the countries he boasted about. The "drivel" in my reply came
from the law books of Northern Ireland. Scant mention was given to England
in that article.

> Jesus, Mary and Joseph, who cares about the "interfamily relationship"
> between England and the Anglican Church?

	"Turnabout is fair play." If you criticize Ireland on church-state
relations and propose that Northern Ireland should therefore remain under
England, I have a right to question church-state relations in England. Its
only logical.

> William Thomas Cosgrave was educated at a Christian Brothers school; the
> latter are legendary bastions of staunch, conservative Catholic learning.
> In 1922 Cosgrove became prime minister of the Irish Free State. The office
> of Uachtaran na h'Eireann (president) was not created until the 1937
> Constitution was passed; the first President of Eire was Dr. Douglas 
> Hyde (founder of the Gaelic League).

	Your absolutely right on this point, Trisha! Cosgrave, a catholic,
was the first Prime Minister. Hyde, a protestant, was the first President.
I got the two confused. Score 1 point for Trisha! However, you lose a half
point for not mentioning that Hyde was a protestant and deduct another half
point for mis-spelling Cosgrave's name in the second sentence above.

> "Ireland" was officially known as "Eire" from 1937 (when the new
> Constitution was enacted) until 1949 (when the country severed all ties with
> the British Commonwealth).

	We agree on this. As I said it hasn't been called "Eire" in about
three decades.

> The official designation after 1949 was "Poblacht na h'Eireann."

	Again, we agree. However, you lose another half point for not
mentioning that "Poblacht na h'Eireann" means "Republic of Ireland" in Irish.
Thanks for confirming my statements!

> "Eire" is still used on Irish passports, postmarks, birth certificates, and
> other official records.  If you want proof, send me your address and I'll
> send you photocopies of the same.

	As you said, Trisha, who cares? I have a Jewish friend who was born
in Germany. He has swastikas on his birth certificate. This doesn't make
him a Nazi and it doesn't mean the official name of Germany was "swastika".

> Eamon de Valera first "got into office" in 1918 when, as head of Sinn Fein,
> he was elected to the British Parliament.

	Right. But, he never took his seat in Parliament because he and all
the other Sinn Fein candiates who represented 80% of the people of Ireland
were publicly pledged to form their own assembly, Dail Eireann, in Dublin,
which they did. The purpose of this assembly was to peacefully and legally
carry out the mandate of the people to create a free and independent Ireland
as described in the proclamation of 1916. They never got the chance to carry
out that mandate peacefully because the British government declared them all
outlaws and proceeded to hunt them down and imprison them.

> In 1919 he was elected president of the non-existent Irish Republic by a
> handful of Sinn Fein members of the Dail Eireann.

	Oops! You've contradicted yourself. As you pointed out the office
of president wasn't created until 1937! And in the same manner George
Washington was selected by a group of his friends to lead the American
Revolution. Some wanted to make Washington a dictator; others wanted to
make him a king.

> Between October and December, 1921, the Dail held treaty negotiations with
> Britain to set up the Irish Free State;

	The treaty negotiations were not with the Dail, but with a very small
group of representatives who were alone in London and unable to communicate
with the Dail or the Irish people. This delegation was split up and worked
on as individuals. They were eventually presented an ultimatum to accept
dominion ("Free State") status with partition of Ireland and the retention of
certain "treaty ports" by the English or face "immediate all-out war and
destruction" by the British Army. They were also given a very short deadline
to accept. Under severe pressure and unable to communicate with home, the
delegation accepted the ultimatum of the British government.
	When the representatives returned home there was an immediate letdown
and a sense of betrayal among the people. But a small group of leaders in
Dublin who became known as "Free Staters" promised the people that this
status would only be temporary and would serve as "steppingstones to the
Republic" which everyone knew was the original goal and the goal that was
still desired. Just before World War II, England returned the "treaty ports"
to Ireland because they feared that otherwise Ireland might become a hostile
neighbor rather than remaining neutral.

					bonnie!jmm
					J. M. McGhee
					just another bloody wog