Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site bonnie.UUCP Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!bonnie!jmm From: jmm@bonnie.UUCP (Joe Mcghee) Newsgroups: net.flame Subject: Irish History Corrected: Part 2 Message-ID: <206@bonnie.UUCP> Date: Wed, 5-Sep-84 12:21:46 EDT Article-I.D.: bonnie.206 Posted: Wed Sep 5 12:21:46 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Sep-84 04:59:12 EDT Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories Whippany NJ Lines: 214 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trisha says, > Eamon de Valera was never a Communist. Yes, I know he wasn't. My comment was meant to be a bit of sarcasm. If you noticed, I put the word in quotation marks. I was qouting the BBC (British Broadcasting Company - an agency of the British government). It seems that when De Valera was running for prime minister on the platform of ending the "Free State" status and declaring the Republic, the British government tried to stop him by putting out the story that he was communist. You can find the BBC statement in one of the last episodes of "Ireland - A Television History" by Robert Kee (produced by the BBC). This might have worked because the Irish people are more anti-communist than just about anybody you can name. There is still no Soviet embassy in Ireland in spite of repeated Soviet requests for it. > The Irish Republican Army (which supported de Valera) was thought to be > under Communist influence in the 1930's (an association it has maintained > to this day). Now your spouting some nonsense from the muddled head of Claire Sterling and other fiction writers employed by MI-6 (British counter- intelligence). In fact the communist party has criticized the IRA and has refused to recognize its existance in any way because the IRA does not follow the revolutionary path prescribed by the communist party. > In 1939 de Valera outlawed the IRA for acts of terrorism. No, he outlawed them because he was afraid they would violate his neutrality by attacking the British in Northern Ireland. Apparently De Valera felt that he needed neutrality and some distance from the IRA in order to be able to maneuver in international politics. In later years Eamon de Valera was quoted as telling visiting President John F. Kennedy "When the British become really unreasonable it sometimes helps to throw a bomb into one of their army trucks!" I'm sure, Trisha, that you would agree that the IRA would approve of this procedure. > It's okay, jmm, I realize that having to face up to historical facts sticks > in some people's throats. You must have an awfully sore throat by now, Trisha. >> Well, of course, the original boundaries of Northern Ireland were >> drawn to enclose the largest area of land with a loyalist majority. But >> things have slipped a little since then. It seems that the birth rate among >> nationalist families is much higher than among loyalist families and there >> are always more nationalist youths in the schools than loyalist youths. It >> causes the government some terrific headaches trying to figure out more ways >> to drive nationalist youths out of Northern Ireland. > Obviously, the original boundaries of Northern Ireland were set up to > include the area with the most Irish Protestants. That was the whole idea > behind the partition in the first place: to maintain a separate geographic > section of the country for those persons who wanted to remain a part of > Great Britain. Originally the British wanted to take the entire province of Ulster which consists of 9 counties. This was impractical because there was a nationalist majority in the 9 counties of Ulster. Next they decided to take only the three counties that had loyalist majorities at that time. This was also impractical they decided because the territory was not large enough to support a viable state. It would have been an international laughing-stock. Finally, they decided to pull in three more counties that had nationalist majorities. The people in these counties had no decision in the matter. It was all decided by an all-British boundary commission. At the present time only 1 or 2 of these 6 counties have a loyalist majority. This also shows the inaccuracy of calling the 6 counties of Northern Ireland "Ulster". > My husband wants to know where all those "nationalist youths" have gone. > Are you saying that the English government routinely picks up "youths" > and flies them off to Portugal, say, or Bangkok? Mars, perhaps? Tell your husband that if he wants to understand what's going on in the world he should first pull his head out of the sand. Most of the nationalist youth of Northern Ireland have gone into the IRA to which they have been driven by the basic human need for self-preservation and survival. Some have gone over to the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland. Some have emigrated to Europe, the U.S.A., Canada and many other countries where there are more freedoms than in Northern Ireland. A large number are also imprisoned in Northern Ireland and England. As I said, in spite of this the percentage of the nationalist population keeps growing. >> For 62 years they've tried unemployment, death threats, denial of >> housing, arrests, murders, beatings, rape, imprisonment and mutilation. But >> nothing seems to work completely. > Funny, this sounds just like that terrorist group known as the Irish > Republican Army..... No, it sounds more like one or all of the following loyalist terrorist groups: The British Army The Royal Ulster Constabulary Ulster Defense Regiment Ulster Defense Association Ulster Volunteer Force Ulster Freedom Fighters The Third Force The Red Hand Loyalist Association of Workers The Orange Order The Masonic Lodges To the best of my knowledge these groups specifically target women and children for murder and injury which the IRA has never done. The Ulster Volunteer Force sent assassins to the home of a nationalist politician. He wasn't at home, but his wife was. So they left their calling card. They carved the letters UVF on her chest. I believe both husband and wife were later murdered. Maura Drumm, another nationalist politician was first wounded and finally shot to death in her hospital bed. Bernadette Devlin McAliskey and her husband were both gravely wounded by a loyalist attack as they dressed their children for school. Another nationalist man was tied to a chair and his hand was cut off with a hack saw. Seven children have been killed by the British Army and the RUC by means of plastic bullets alone. Other children have been killed by the Army and RUC by various means. One boy was shot dead by the British Army while quietly sitting and talking to his father outside their house. Emma Groves, a grandmother, was blinded while sitting in her living room listening to her record player. A British soldier fired a rubber bullet at her through the window hitting her in the face and destroying both eyes. After Emma Groves travelled to the U.S. to protest the manufacture of plastic bullets to the American shareholders in the company that manufactures them; she returned home and was placed under house arrest while her home was torn apart by the British Army in a search for some unspecified item. At Armagh Prison for Women, strip searches of female inmates by male guards are a daily occurance. These strip searches are often attended by 10 to 15 guards at a time. The women are stripped completely naked and every body opening is searched. Any objection to the procedure is met by a swift beating. No special accomodation is given to pregnant women. In fact some pregnant women have been threatened with induced miscarriages. A few years ago the British government leaked the information that the Kincorra Boys Home in Northern Ireland was being maintained as a male brothel for the friends of the Reverend Ian Paisley. In fact the first British soldier to die in the present conflict (1969-1984) was killed by a loyalist! And the conflict started when natonalists decided to protest the denial of equal housing opportunity and equal voting rights under the law. Nationalists and students staged peaceful, non-violent protest marches. First the protest marches were attacked, then the entire nationalist population was attacked. The kind of attacks usually reserved for the annual Orange celebrations became an everyday event. Thousands of nationalist families were burned out of their homes and fled across the border where they were received by Irish Army field hospitals. At that time the IRA had been inactive for more than a decade and did not exist except on paper. The nationalist people had no one and nothing to defend them against the forces arrayed against them as listed above. The nationalist people began to protest that IRA stood for "I Ran Away". The response to this cry came from a man who was born in London, named John Stevenson, of an English father and an Irish mother. John had served in the RAF at the end of World War II. Since then John had married, moved to Ireland and gaelisized his name to Sean MacStiofain. He became the chief-of-staff of the Provisional IRA. You can read his autobiography "Revolutionary in Ireland" for yourself. >> The nationalist population keeps on gaining. >> The real population figures are a tightly guarded government secret. Some >> loyalists are so alarmed that they've demanded a special law be passed that >> would require a 75% nationalist majority to change the government. Not that >> it would make any difference since there was an 80% nationalist majority >> throughout Ireland who actually voted for independence in the general >> elections shortly after the uprising of 1916. > Come on, jmm, facts, we need facts. How do you know the "real" population > figures are a "tightly guarded government secret"? When were you ever a > part of the English government? A few years ago the government conducted a census of Northern Ireland. The figures of that census have never been released. It doesn't take high intelligence to realize that the figures have not been released because they are damaging to the government. There has never been a lack of people who defect from the British government and turn over inside information while working inside it. An example is General Glover's secret report on the IRA, which has been published. > God only knows for sure to what "general elections" you are referring; > in 1922 the electorate in the south voted overwhelmingly to accept the > treaty making Ireland a dominion of Britain -- in other words, the > republicans lost and the Civil War started. The north has always voted > to stay with Great Britain. In 1922 the Dail voted by a 51% majority to accept the treaty which stipulated that there would be a total British withdrawal from all of Ireland within a few years. In fact the Irish Constitution, written at that time states that the Irish government claims sovereignty over all the territory of Ireland and all the waters surrounding Ireland. There was never a popular vote (of all the people) on the question of accepting the treaty of 1922. One of those who fought and died in the Civil War against the acceptance of the treaty was an English Protestant, Erskine Childers, mentioned in Part 1 of my reply. >> The British government simply declared all the nationalist >> representatives to be outlaws and declared war on the nationalist people. >> A simple solution to a complex problem. > What ARE you talking about? I was referring, as I stated in Part 1 of my reply, to the elections of 1918 in which 80% of the population of all of Ireland, including loyalists, voted for Sinn Fein candidates who were pledged to set up an independent government in Dublin. This government would then take over all the functions of a sovereign state. If you've never heard of this event then you knowledge of Irish history is indeed defective. > gee, I always knew that masters in history would pay off! It must look nice hanging on your wall, but I'm afraid it has inflamed your ego. bonnie!jmm J. M. McGhee "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson