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From: ken@ihuxq.UUCP (ken perlow)
Newsgroups: net.religion
Subject: Re: Saints and Sinners
Message-ID: <1202@ihuxq.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 10-Sep-84 09:56:09 EDT
Article-I.D.: ihuxq.1202
Posted: Mon Sep 10 09:56:09 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 13-Sep-84 19:45:12 EDT
References: <260@uwmacc.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Naperville, IL
Lines: 73

--
[Paul DuBois]
>> Ken Perlow made the statement that sinners are intrinsically
>> more interesting than saints.  I asked why.

[I said, & Paul quoted]
> I guess I'd better speak up then.  Christians do not have a lock on
> the concept of sainthood.  And I thought we were all supposed to be
> sinners in the eyes of God, well your God, anyway.

[Paul DuBois comments]
>> That's right.  And that means me, too.  But did Christ die so
>> that we would *remain* sinners, or does He want us to die to
>> the world and ourselves and be raised as new creatures (such as,
>> for example, saints)?  Regarding the lock:  As Christ said He
>> was the only way to God, He evidently would hold that His
>> people *do* have a lock on sainthood.

That was his problem, and I guess yours too.  Other messiahs have
claimed to know other paths to true enlightenment.  Those who were
not so intolerant as to claim a lock on the truth should not have
it held against them.  And those messiahs who *WERE* so intolerant,
since their belief sets barely intersect, present the all-too-eager
to believe with a most gruesome Hobson's choice.

[I said, & Paul quoted]
> You don't have to be a Christian to want to live an exemplary life,
> nor to feel you are not doing it as well as you could.  It's the
> trying and failing--irrespective of religious particulars--that's
> interesting.

[Paul DuBois comments]
>> First sentence: agreed.  Second sentence: it's also nice to try,
>> and succeed.   But we don't succeed in our own strength (God's
>> strength is shown through our weakness).  The Holy Spirit
>> empowers the saint to live a holy life.  Note that I'm not trying
>> to imply that I'm completely satisfied and smug about how righteous
>> I am.  I come across like it, I guess.  Any saintliness in me is
>> God's doing.  Any sin in me is my own fault, and my own
>> responsibility.

Hey, don't tell me what I find interesting!  I am fascinated by
people who adopt utopian, perfectionist standards, who try their
hardest to live up to those standards but often hold them because they
know their entire lives will be devoted to quest, not attainment.
If *THE* true way is all cookbook, I'm not impressed--it's boring.
But that's just my opinion.  Forgive *MY* smugness if I set higher
standards than your bible does.

[I said, & Paul quoted]
> As for your question, "What's so exciting about sin?", the answer's
> the same as the price of the yacht: "If you have to ask, you can't
> afford it."

[Paul comments]
>> Not an answer, Ken.  I've lived a life of sin, so I know what
>> it's all about.  And it isn't interesting at all compared to
>> a life of service to Father/Son/Holy Spirit.  Not at all.
>> Which is why I asked why you say so.  I'm still asking.

Why?  Surely you remember what motivated you in those lurid times.
But whatsamatter?  No sense of humor?  Look Paul, I'm glad
you are happy now--so few people are.  I am too, and fortunately for me,
I don't have to justify my life to you (nor you to me).  The exercise
would not be productive.  As for the excitement of sin (however
defined), hey, you just admitted it yourself--you couldn't afford it!
-- 
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