Relay-Version: version B 2.10 5/3/83; site utzoo.UUCP Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83; site mit-athena.ARPA Path: utzoo!watmath!clyde!burl!ulysses!unc!mcnc!decvax!mit-athena!martillo From: martillo@mit-athena.ARPA (Joaquim Martillo) Newsgroups: net.religion.jewish Subject: Re: Who is a Jew Message-ID: <265@mit-athena.ARPA> Date: Sat, 1-Sep-84 23:48:14 EDT Article-I.D.: mit-athe.265 Posted: Sat Sep 1 23:48:14 1984 Date-Received: Thu, 6-Sep-84 03:43:22 EDT References: <1438@ittvax.UUCP>, <223@fisher.UUCP> <225@mit-athena.ARPA>, <253@fisher.UUCP> <255@mit-athena.ARPA>Re: Who is a Jew Organization: MIT, Project Athena, Cambridge, Ma. Lines: 69 >I never denied the existance of a Jewish community. To do so would be, >as you say, contradicted by fact. What I said was that most American Jews >have more in common with American non-Jews than with Jewish non-Americans. >To say that this denies this existence of a Jewish community requires >that you also believe that any individual can belong to only one >community. I do not hold that supposition to be true, and find no >contradiction in my asserting my membership in both the American and >Jewish communities. I usually consider a person's community to be those people to whom a person feels closest and with whom a person has the most in common. Ruben's statement here supports my contention that many (probably most) American Jews do not feel very close to Sefardim and that the suffering of Sefardim could be the suffering of Martians for all they care. David Ruben sees no contradiction in a person being both a member of the Jewish community and of the American community. If there should ever be a conflict between these two affiliations, I am curious how David Ruben would resolve it. >German Jews were always members of the Jewish community, and >occasionally members of the German community, too. Given the final fate of the German Jews, I would say rather: German Jews were always members of the Jewish community, and many erroneously thought themselves to be members of the German community. >>I have yet to label individuals on the net idiotic, arrogant or moronic >>although certainly all these types exist on the net. I have labeled >>opinions moronic or ignorant. From the standpoint of Judaism limudei >>torat moshe (studies of the teaching of Moses) are not acts of piety, >>they are fundamental obligations of all Jews and I have little patience >>with those Jews on the net who show greater familiarity with >>intellectual second raters like Thoreau, Emerson, Mills, Jefferson than >>with intellectual first raters like Maimonides, Nahmanides, Isaac >>al-Fasi, Abarbanel, Judah ben Betsalel Loewe (Maharal miPrag), the Vilna >>Gaon -- especially when these Jews show simultaneously no inclination to >>correct this gross intellectual imbalance. >All you mentioned were intellectual first-raters. I studied in Europe and can assert that only one or two American thinkers before the 30s are taken seriously. >You stated that I was not a Jew. You ought not wonder that I took this >for an insult. Your implication that I am ignorant of basic Jewish >texts is a false one. I showed "no familiarty" with basic texts >because discussion is usually hobbled, not enhanced, by reference to >"expert" testimony. I stated that many American Jews are not genuinely Jewish but rather accidentally Jewish (Cynthia Ozick uses the term non-Jewish Jews). You posed the question whose Jewish law should be used to decide who is Jewish. Obviously this question can only be answered in a metalegal sense. I merely suggested that a valid criterion for those Jews who select the legal system should be that their primary affiliation (their community) be the Jewish community. Ruben repeatedly states many American Jews feel closer to American non-Jews than to non-American Jews. This feeling should disqualify their input in the selection of Jewish law. I would hardly suggest someone who feels closest to the French should have input on the choice of legal system to run the USA. I do not understand how using Jewish sources hobbles a discussion of the Jewish legal system.