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From: aeq@pucc-h (Jeff Sargent)
Newsgroups: net.singles
Subject: Re: christians are not saints
Message-ID: <1041@pucc-h>
Date: Wed, 29-Aug-84 05:25:22 EDT
Article-I.D.: pucc-h.1041
Posted: Wed Aug 29 05:25:22 1984
Date-Received: Thu, 30-Aug-84 01:16:01 EDT
References: <814@ihuxe.UUCP>
Organization: Tucumcari Divinity School
Lines: 81

How did this get into net.singles?  Still, I find myself unable to let it go
by without trying to present a more balanced picture.

from Robert (ihuxe!rainbow):

> I have decided non-christians are a better class of people.

I can't agree with this; many (by no means all, but quite a few) non-Christians
of my acquaintance like to do things which are self-destructive (e.g. getting
thoroughly drunk or listening to the horribly peaceless, jarring "music" now
audible on the top 40 stations), and they still (implicitly) defend them as
good.  This is but one example which renders the "better class" judgment
questionable.

Mind you, I sometimes do self-destructive things too, but I try not to pretend
that what I'm doing is good.

> the so-called christians *I was associated with* had such low
> ethics and morals that I couldn't stand the hypocrisy anymore.

I'd be curious to know what sort of church you went to.  Note my emphasis of
the fact that it was the (nominal?) Christians *you were associated with* who
misused their freedom; not all of us do that, at least not by conscious
intention.  A great percentage of the Christians I know take Christ and His
words seriously and try to follow Him; a number of them succeed rather well
and are thus very beautiful people.

> I find non-christians much more understanding and considerate as a whole.

There's a mixed bag on this net; some of the non-Christians certainly fit your
description, but I wouldn't say the whole group does.  And I have numerous
Christian friends who are most understanding and considerate (I admit that I
have been variable in my postings to this group and in "real life", sometimes
very nice, other times a real S.O.B.).  Perhaps you were among "churchians"
rather than Christians.

> The christians acted so aloof that they thought they could do anything
> because of course they would be forgiven. Like they had a free pass to 
> do evil. It made me sick with disgust.

It sickens me too.  I have a vague memory of someone saying that the Greek
of one verse in Romans runs something like, "Shall we sin, that grace may
abound?  HELL NO!"  Obviously the people you knew were ignoring this verse.
The true meaning of Christian forgiveness is twofold:  one, that you try to
do the best you can to follow Christ, but if you slip and fall, you are still
accepted by God; two, that God will "remove your transgressions from you"
(Psalm 103:12) literally -- i.e. He will change you into one less likely to
slip.

> If these people are saints, well, I want nothing to do with them.

I'm not sure I would either, other than to, as gently and lovingly as
possible, point out that they're missing out on so much life and growth
that they could have if they truly allowed Christ to work in them.

> Give me the "sinners" any day. I'd rather
> associate with them for the honest friendships they give me.

Hi.  I'm a sinner, saved by grace, but still tripping over myself now and then.
(Actually, I should say "occasionally not tripping over myself".)  And I
certainly have a number of honest friendships.

Anyway, a man who was one of the greatest saints that ever lived referred to
himself as "chief of sinners" -- Paul the Apostle.

In sum, I think you just have seen biased samples -- i.e. you have encountered
some of the worst Christians and the best non-Christians, both of which are
probably some way down the tails of their respective bell curves, and judged
from that.

> christians are not saints  [title]

If by "saint" you mean one who leads a remarkably pure and loving life, many
of us are not.  But if by "saint" you mean one who knows Christ and honestly
tries to live like Him -- no matter how badly he/she fails -- then yes, I am
a saint, as are millions of others.

-- 
-- Jeff Sargent
{decvax|harpo|ihnp4|inuxc|seismo|ucbvax}!pur-ee!pucc-h:aeq
[the man with the cornrowed chest hair :-)]